I'm Feelin' Dumb...Again (Help!)

[Tomorrow]

All of a sudden...okay, maybe it's not all that sudden...I don't feel that I know what's going on with digital DSP modes/fields.

I have an RX-V2500 receiver. It, like all products made in Asia, has a really lousy user manual. Directions are fairly opaque and confusing. Nevertheless, we've managed to get most of its capabilities active. Also, the problem below has been directed to two different "tech support" people at Yamaha. And you all know how that went. I know more than they do about this unit. And they each gave conflicting 'facts'.

But on to the problem. The way I understand the general cinema DSP modes and the way the manual sort of reads, I believe I should be able to play a DD DVD and make the unit play in 7.1 by using the ProLogic IIx field (Surround Enhanced mode). But that setting will not engage the rear surrounds. Well, that's about the only time I can't utilize 7.1...when playing a DD disc. (I haven't tried a DTS disc, yet, but I suspect it will have the same issue.) If the input to the receiver is anything in 2-channel, the rear surrounds work fine. I'm not talking about using Pure Direct or Multi-Channel analog, by the way. I put a DD DVD in my player, and I get 5.1 and only 5.1. I watch tv in 7.1 using the same settings. The receiver is set to recognize all surround speakers, and automatically recognize the DTS and Dolby Digital flags. But it's acting as though I can't override that auto select of DD.

Can this be some wierdness related to the digital output of the DVD player? No setting I change seems to have any affect on this issue, either with the DVD deck or the receiver. Puhleeeze help me here. Is this the way of DD reality...am I doing something wrong in the system setup...or do I have a faulty receiver? I've tried just about everything except pulling what's left of my hair out. But I'm willing to try any good suggestions.

Thanks.

 

[avaserfi]

The receiver should be able to take a Dolby Digital signal (5/6 channel) and apply PLIIx to it to get your rear surrounds (7 channel). With my receiver it doesn't make a difference, but with yours it might. Is your DVD player set to bitstream? That might do the trick.

Edit: Just so you know it should play DD + PLIIx so your main 5 channels are the regular DD signal and the back to get the matrixed signal from PLIIx (this also applied to DTS).

Another edit: Just looked at your manual and you should be able to get the DD + PLIIx. Check out page 49. It goes over some of the possible things you can do with various processing and PLIIx

 

[Tomorrow]

Thanks for verifying my thinking and reading of the manual.

Yes, the DVD is set to output its signal in Bitstream.

Now I have to figure out why it won't play the rear surrounds when ordered to.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Thanks for verifying my thinking and reading of the manual.

Yes, the DVD is set to output its signal in Bitstream.

Now I have to figure out why it won't play the rear surrounds when ordered to.

Try PCM. It won't hurt anything.

From Dolby:
The age of 7.1 surround sound for the home is here. But it's not just reserved for DVD movies encoded in Dolby Digital EX. With Dolby Pro Logic IIx, any movie, CD, TV program or video game can be enjoyed through this enhanced surround sound technology.

Pro Logic IIx is the first and only technology to expand any existing stereo- or 5.1-channel audio for a 6.1- or 7.1- channel playback, creating a seamless, natural surround soundfield that immerses you in the entertainment experience.

 

[avaserfi]

So you are watching a DD movie the screen on your receiver shows it is playing through 5 channels and the sub and shows that you are using DD processing. When you hit the PLIIx Cinema option what happens?

I know on my receiver it shows input speakers and output speakers. When I am using PLIIx it shows 5 and the sub in and 7 and the sub out. The designation on my receiver is Dolby + PLIIxCin.

Does your receiver do anything like this? Does it even acknowledge that you are trying to apply PLIIx on top of DD?

In my case the rear surrounds are used very well and not always when the sides are. PLIIx is a very well made algorithm that almost seems like adding two more discrete channels. Have you tried watching a movie with large surround use and noticed no sound from your rears during surround heavy scenes?

 

[Tomorrow]

So you are watching a DD movie the screen on your receiver shows it is playing through 5 channels and the sub and shows that you are using DD processing. When you hit the PLIIx Cinema option what happens?

I know on my receiver it shows input speakers and output speakers. When I am using PLIIx it shows 5 and the sub in and 7 and the sub out. The designation on my receiver is Dolby + PLIIxCin.

Does your receiver do anything like this? Does it even acknowledge that you are trying to apply PLIIx on top of DD?

In my case the rear surrounds are used very well and not always when the sides are. PLIIx is a very well made algorithm that almost seems like adding two more discrete channels. Have you tried watching a movie with large surround use and noticed no sound from your rears during surround heavy scenes?

Okay....just checked it out again. When I put in a known good DD DVD (Star Wars III) the unit automatically switches off PCM and apparently switches to accept the DVD player's bitstream. All display notices are similar to yours, avaserfi. DD is engaged. DVD+PLIIx engages. The disc starts. And here's a new surprise that I hadn't seen before and it has me really confused....The THX sound FX (the thing before THX movies) plays and the rear surround speaker lights engage, as do the speakers themselves. But as soon as that THX logo/sound disappears and the movie starts....it's back to 5.1 and the rear surround speaker indicator light turns off...as do the speakers.

Man, this is unbelievably strange. I wish I still drank adult beverages. I think I might tolerate the frustration better, lol.

 

[MDS]

And here's a new surprise that I hadn't seen before and it has me really confused....The THX sound FX (the thing before THX movies) plays and the rear surround speaker lights engage, as do the speakers themselves. But as soon as that THX logo/sound disappears and the movie starts....it's back to 5.1 and the rear surround speaker indicator light turns off...as do the speakers.

Is that disc actually DD-EX? Does that recevier have options for how to deal with EX soundtracks? Some have options for always use the DD-EX decoder (same as THX surround), never use it, or only use it if the flag is present.

Try setting the option to Always.

 

[Tomorrow]

Is that disc actually DD-EX? Does that recevier have options for how to deal with EX soundtracks? Some have options for always use the DD-EX decoder (same as THX surround), never use it, or only use it if the flag is present.

Try setting the option to Always.

I think it's just straight DD. I'll go check to see where the options are set for EX on the Rx.

I just had a thought that the THX signal from the disc may be encoded in 6.1??? That would mean the Rx is not playing the DSP mode it says that it is playing. (But I still don't know why it does work with 2-channel television.)

Grrrrr......

 

[avaserfi]

Okay....just checked it out again. When I put in a known good DD DVD (Star Wars III) the unit automatically switches off PCM and apparently switches to accept the DVD player's bitstream. All display notices are similar to yours, avaserfi. DD is engaged. DVD+PLIIx engages. The disc starts. And here's a new surprise that I hadn't seen before and it has me really confused....The THX sound FX (the thing before THX movies) plays and the rear surround speaker lights engage, as do the speakers themselves. But as soon as that THX logo/sound disappears and the movie starts....it's back to 5.1 and the rear surround speaker indicator light turns off...as do the speakers.

Man, this is unbelievably strange. I wish I still drank adult beverages. I think I might tolerate the frustration better, lol.

Have you tried turning PLIIx on after the rear speakers disengage? It sounds like DD+PLIIx turns off when the THX mode turns on.

If you have when you hit the PLIIx button on your remote what exactly happens on the receiver's display? Does nothing happen or do the notations like I said previously show up?

 

[Tomorrow]

Have you tried turning PLIIx on after the rear speakers disengage? It sounds like DD+PLIIx turns off when the THX mode turns on.

If you have when you hit the PLIIx button on your remote what exactly happens on the receiver's display? Does nothing happen or do the notations like I said previously show up?

When I hit the command for PLIIx, the unit displays that status briefly, then reverts to saying Surround Enhanced. I can get the display to say that D+PLIIx = "on" by clicking the Surround Standard button...then too, the display will revert to Surround Enhanced. Even if I put all settings to the correct 7.1 surround position and set the display in Cinema/Movie mode (where it stays on), it will only play in 5.1.

 

[avaserfi]

When I hit the command for PLIIx, the unit displays that status briefly, then reverts to saying Surround Enhanced. I can get the display to say that D+PLIIx = "on" by clicking the Surround Standard button...then too, the display will revert to Surround Enhanced. Even if I put all settings to the correct 7.1 surround position and set the display in Cinema/Movie mode (where it stays on), it will only play in 5.1.

Something definitely seems wrong with this. According to page 94 of your manual it says

"For Surround enhanced
Function: Selects the decoder used to play back 2-channel sources using Surround Enhanced."

Maybe I am getting the terminology confused since I haven't ever actually owned a Yamaha, but I think it should just show Dolby Digital on your display. Try to set it so there are no DSPs on at all and your unit just shows DD is on and it is playing through 5 channels then turn on PLIIx and see if that does the trick.

I think you have other DSPs on as well.

 

[Tomorrow]

EUREKA!

Apparently after a power outage (or unplugging) the unit reverts to factory settings. I reset everything and it's working in 7.1 as we speak! Gawd, I hate technology.

Thanks for all your help, guys.

 

[avaserfi]

EUREKA!

Apparently after a power outage (or unplugging) the unit reverts to factory settings. I reset everything and it's working in 7.1 as we speak! Gawd, I hate technology.

Thanks for all your help, guys.

Glad to hear it was fixed. Any idea what the problem was then?

 

[Tomorrow]

Glad to hear it was fixed. Any idea what the problem was then?

I had to raise the amplitude of the signal to the rears. So I ended up just balancing all speaks with the spl meter. It was outputting to the rears, just rather quietly.

 

[Dolby CP-200]

Just activate the centre back surround manually its got to be something wrong the encoding that triggers the Dolby centre back what a load of bollocks if you ask me.

But then why should a consumer put up with someone’s incompetence and lack of supervision of the authoring of the DVD this issue has been brought up many times on different sites.

This is why is use a separate Dolby pro-logic decoder to produce the centre back and height effects as well, yeah that doesn’t came with the Yamaha, I guess Dolby and THX really cowed that one up. Since the professional version the Dolby SA-10 which is modified Dolby CP-45 Dolby stereo cinema processor which has an extra surround or rather it’s like this.

Dolby CP-45

Dolby SA-10

Dolby stereo pro-logic decodes the 4:2:4 signal and distributes the outputs via left centre right and surround.

Or with this crazy centre back mode idea and I was running centre back in the home cinema nearly a full year before "STAR WARS episode 1" (1999) was promoting the idea now then.

So we know the decoder is looking at the stereo surround signal and just like the Dolby stereo optical process where with matrix encoding is applied whether it is or not is neither here or there if stereo surrounds have been mixed carefully then it should place the (centre phantom) signal to the centre back surrounds rather than having it playing over two loudspeakers, unless there’s a hard pan to the left or right or half pan to left and right and so on.

 

[stratman]

Glad to hear it was fixed. Any idea what the problem was then?

BTW, your thread title will make a great country-western song!

 

[mtrycrafts]

EUREKA!

Apparently after a power outage (or unplugging) the unit reverts to factory settings. I reset everything and it's working in 7.1 as we speak! Gawd, I hate technology.

Thanks for all your help, guys.

Yes, but it would be good to know what settings caused your dilemma and the Rx behavior so, in the future, you can avoid it or check to see those settings are not engaged somehow.
Now you have to re-calibrate it.

 

[Tomorrow]

Yes, but it would be good to know what settings caused your dilemma and the Rx behavior so, in the future, you can avoid it or check to see those settings are not engaged somehow.
Now you have to re-calibrate it.

It would be helpful...but I dunno. (Tomorrow dons dunce cap.) We get frequent power outages here, or maybe it was a cosmic ray.

Yep...got it recalibrated and it's good to go. .... .... until .....

One possibility is that when I checked the rears...there may not have been much or any signal going to them. I even shut down all the speakers but the rears, just to verify. It's entirely possible, though doubtful, that what I was playing at the time was sending little or no info to the rears.

 

[Dolby CP-200]

Well one things clear it isn’t user friendly, why not send Yamaha an Email maybe one of there eggheads can figure it out for you.

 

[Tomorrow]

Well one things clear it isn’t user friendly, why not send Yamaha an Email maybe one of there eggheads can figure it out for you.

Did that. I know WAY more about this unit than the techs at Yamaha. Like tech support people everywhere...they're just reading the FAQ's.