I'm a little confused...

[jarrett baines]

Hi there. I'm new to the forum and I'm trying to get some consistent Information. I know that this topic has been discussed many times over. My problem is I'm being told one thing from the store I'm dealing with and what Gene and Hugo are saying on you tube. My question is about what size to call my speakers and crossover setting. Gene if I'm getting what he's saying, is to set my speakers to small. The guy who came to my house said that was wrong and set them to large. He set everything in my receiver up and it sounds great to me. Problem is I'm not used to high quality sound yet.
Any way here's the list
Paradigm Prestige 75f fronts
Paradigm prestige 45c center
Paradigm millenia ones rears
Paradigm millenia sub and wireless transmitter
And Marantz sr6010 receiver

I'm a proud Canadian so I went with Paradigm, for my ears I couldn't be happier. But of course I'm loving learning about my system as I go. The reason I'm not used to the sound is I'm used to bose 5.1 set up we had previously doesn't hold a candle to this new set up.
Thanks for reading. Any info on weather to leave my set up as is or change the settings back to small. I'm am still using the audisey he ran for me.

 

[lovinthehd]

All large really means is "do not use bass management", small means "use bass management". Is this your sub? You only have one of those?

 

[jarrett baines]

Yes I have a millenia sub. I'm in a pretty small room. I think 2 might be too much for the room, or that's what I was told. Originally I was getting the svs sb2000. But was told 1w" was way to much and wouldn't give me great sound
I get pretty low on this one and sound great to me. I'm moving next year and the home theater room plays a huge part in the house we get next. So then I'll add a second millenia sub.

 

[Latent]

With most modern and non entry level AVR'S like your one now have independent crossover between speaker and sub per speaker. This means that you can set all speakers to small and then pick a crossover frequency for each speaker so that any frequencies it can't handle well will go to the sub. There is no good reason to use large setting unless you don't have a sub or your sub can't outperform your speakers.

So once you have them all small and the frequencies set as low as each speaker will go itself you then have a decision to make. You can leave it like this or pick a frequency around 80hz and lift all ( or just some) speakers that are below this setting up to this frequency. If your system is well calibrated and your sub(s) are good enough then this will not effect the sound much as this low frequency is not directional so it makes less difference where the sound comes from
But your sub amps now take over some of the load and the speakers draw less power and with some speakers they may perform better at the higher bass frequencies since they are freed from producing the lower ones. You may prefer to keep you main front speakers at the lower say 40hz(small) setting so they produce some lower bass if you have paid so much to get large floorstanders.

Too many people think large and small setting is something to do with the size of the speaker when that concept went out the door when modern bass mangment came along. For legacy reasons they have not changed the naming.

 

[jarrett baines]

Thanks for your reply. I'm pretty new to this so I appreciate any help I can get. I'll try them on small. I'll try the lower setting at 40 for the fronts and 80 for the rest. Does doing this mean I need to recalibrate the audisey? Or will the settings from last time still work? I'm just happy with how it sounds and don't want to have to pay again if I mess it up.

 

[herbu]

I'm new to the forum and I'm trying to get some consistent Information.

jarrett,
Latent is right, but let me try to say it a different way.

First, "consistent information". In the world of audio, this can be difficult because "good" or "best" is often determined by what sounds good or best to you. Regardless of specs and measurements, what sounds best to you may not be what sounds best to me. Thus, audio advice may differ.

But let's look at "small" vs "large" speakers. "Large" means your AVR will send the whole, complete signal to that speaker... from the lowest bass to the highest treble. "Small" tells your AVR, "I have another speaker that is better for bass, so I want you to send the lowest bass to that speaker, and all the rest to my "small" speaker". If you chose "small", your AVR lets you define the frequency you want it to use for splitting the signal between your "small" and subwoofer speaker. This point is called the "crossover".

So when deciding between "small" and "large", you have to look at your speakers. First, do you have a subwoofer? If no, the answer is easy... set your speakers to "large". If yes, is the sub better than my regular speakers at low frequencies? Usually this answer is yes, so you have to figure out your crossover. It's pretty easy.

Understand that a speaker's capability to play its lowest lows or highest highs does not immediately drop off, like "now you hear it, now you don't". Its capability rolls off with a sloping curve, getting less and less capable of producing that note.

I looked at the specs of your 75Fs on the Paradigm website. It says their frequency response is "±2dB from 44 Hz - 20 kHz". It is generally considered that the smallest volume change you can actually hear is 3dB. So when a spec says, "This speaker can play this range of frequencies within plus or minus 2dB", it means "This speaker can play these frequencies with a volume consistent enough that you can't hear any difference".

So your 75Fs can play consistently down to 44Hz. Below that, the volume drops enough that you can actually hear it getting softer and softer until it finally disappears. This is the first clue about where to set your crossover.

Though we don't usually like automobile analogies, think about this. You have a car with a max speed of 120mph. But you understand it would not be most efficient to run it regularly at 120mph. Although your speaker can go down to 44Hz, it is not most efficient to do that. This is the second clue about your crossover.

Since you do have a sub, and taking both the above clues, I would suggest setting your 75Fs to "Small", and setting their crossover at 80Hz. See how that sounds to you. Then try a crossover at 60Hz. See how that sounds. Pick which sounds best to you. Then look at the frequency response specs for your other speakers and repeat for them. (Note: the crossover for your surrounds will almost certainly be higher.)

When you're satisfied, start looking at subs. Check the specs for yours. Then check the specs for the sb2000 and pb2000, and others from SVS, Rythmik and HSU. The same rules as above apply to subs. If the specs don't tell you their freq response is within +/- 3dB or 2dB, the specs are pretty useless. You now know a speaker can be measured to play a frequency, but is actually too soft for you to hear. (For example, "Low Frequency Extension" without a dB level, is useless.)

 

[PENG]

Thanks for your reply. I'm pretty new to this so I appreciate any help I can get. I'll try them on small. I'll try the lower setting at 40 for the fronts and 80 for the rest. Does doing this mean I need to recalibrate the audisey? Or will the settings from last time still work? I'm just happy with how it sounds and don't want to have to pay again if I mess it up.

Run Audyssey first, when done the 75f will most likely be set to large by the SR6010 (not Audyssey) so you have to change it back to small and set the crossover frequency to 80 or even 90 Hz. The MilleniaSub is not a good match for your speakers but may be fine if your room is really small, like 11'X15'X8' or something like that. The sub looks cute but seems ridiculously overpriced in practical sense.

 

[jarrett baines]

jarrett,
Latent is right, but let me try to say it a different way.

First, "consistent information". In the world of audio, this can be difficult because "good" or "best" is often determined by what sounds good or best to you. Regardless of specs and measurements, what sounds best to you may not be what sounds best to me. Thus, audio advice may differ.

But let's look at "small" vs "large" speakers. "Large" means your AVR will send the whole, complete signal to that speaker... from the lowest bass to the highest treble. "Small" tells your AVR, "I have another speaker that is better for bass, so I want you to send the lowest bass to that speaker, and all the rest to my "small" speaker". If you chose "small", your AVR lets you define the frequency you want it to use for splitting the signal between your "small" and subwoofer speaker. This point is called the "crossover".

So when deciding between "small" and "large", you have to look at your speakers. First, do you have a subwoofer? If no, the answer is easy... set your speakers to "large". If yes, is the sub better than my regular speakers at low frequencies? Usually this answer is yes, so you have to figure out your crossover. It's pretty easy.

Understand that a speaker's capability to play its lowest lows or highest highs does not immediately drop off, like "now you hear it, now you don't". Its capability rolls off with a sloping curve, getting less and less capable of producing that note.

I looked at the specs of your 75Fs on the Paradigm website. It says their frequency response is "±2dB from 44 Hz - 20 kHz". It is generally considered that the smallest volume change you can actually hear is 3dB. So when a spec says, "This speaker can play this range of frequencies within plus or minus 2dB", it means "This speaker can play these frequencies with a volume consistent enough that you can't hear any difference".

So your 75Fs can play consistently down to 44Hz. Below that, the volume drops enough that you can actually hear it getting softer and softer until it finally disappears. This is the first clue about where to set your crossover.

Though we don't usually like automobile analogies, think about this. You have a car with a max speed of 120mph. But you understand it would not be most efficient to run it regularly at 120mph. Although your speaker can go down to 44Hz, it is not most efficient to do that. This is the second clue about your crossover.

Since you do have a sub, and taking both the above clues, I would suggest setting your 75Fs to "Small", and setting their crossover at 80Hz. See how that sounds to you. Then try a crossover at 60Hz. See how that sounds. Pick which sounds best to you. Then look at the frequency response specs for your other speakers and repeat for them. (Note: the crossover for your surrounds will almost certainly be higher.)

When you're satisfied, start looking at subs. Check the specs for yours. Then check the specs for the sb2000 and pb2000, and others from SVS, Rythmik and HSU. The same rules as above apply to subs. If the specs don't tell you their freq response is within +/- 3dB or 2dB, the specs are pretty useless. You now know a speaker can be measured to play a frequency, but is actually too soft for you to hear. (For example, "Low Frequency Extension" without a dB level, is useless.)

Thanks for helping to clear that up. I'll do as you say and try to trust my eats. Like I say I'm not a great judge be ouse of how good everything sounds. I swore out of the box that it was perfect as is. But it just keeps getting better.

 

[Dan Madden]

"Herbu" said it best! Just set your speakers to small and let the sub do all the hard LF work. This will free up piles of power from your AVR to do the rest of the work. 80hz is the THX benchmark for LFE settings. Start there and if you wish, experiment with some other LFE settings to see how you like it. However, if your mains play to 44hz (and probably not efficiently to that) , I would strongly suggest a 80Hz or higher setting for LFE cutoff with your AVR and not lower.

 

[jarrett baines]

Thanks every one for your help. I'm still a bit unclear will I need to recalibrate with Audisey after changing the speaker size and bring the crossover to 80 allowing my subs amp to do any sounds below 80. But do I recalibrate.
I hope I'm catching some of what you guys are saying. Don't mean to be slow but I have had a tremendous amount of troubles with receivers in the past. And really don't want them on this receiver. It's just jumping from an entry level receiver to this higher end one. That I understand is more than I needed. But to hell with that because I like it.
Thanks again all.

 

[jarrett baines]

jarrett,
Latent is right, but let me try to say it a different way.

First, "consistent information". In the world of audio, this can be difficult because "good" or "best" is often determined by what sounds good or best to you. Regardless of specs and measurements, what sounds best to you may not be what sounds best to me. Thus, audio advice may differ.

But let's look at "small" vs "large" speakers. "Large" means your AVR will send the whole, complete signal to that speaker... from the lowest bass to the highest treble. "Small" tells your AVR, "I have another speaker that is better for bass, so I want you to send the lowest bass to that speaker, and all the rest to my "small" speaker". If you chose "small", your AVR lets you define the frequency you want it to use for splitting the signal between your "small" and subwoofer speaker. This point is called the "crossover".

So when deciding between "small" and "large", you have to look at your speakers. First, do you have a subwoofer? If no, the answer is easy... set your speakers to "large". If yes, is the sub better than my regular speakers at low frequencies? Usually this answer is yes, so you have to figure out your crossover. It's pretty easy.

Understand that a speaker's capability to play its lowest lows or highest highs does not immediately drop off, like "now you hear it, now you don't". Its capability rolls off with a sloping curve, getting less and less capable of producing that note.

I looked at the specs of your 75Fs on the Paradigm website. It says their frequency response is "±2dB from 44 Hz - 20 kHz". It is generally considered that the smallest volume change you can actually hear is 3dB. So when a spec says, "This speaker can play this range of frequencies within plus or minus 2dB", it means "This speaker can play these frequencies with a volume consistent enough that you can't hear any difference".

So your 75Fs can play consistently down to 44Hz. Below that, the volume drops enough that you can actually hear it getting softer and softer until it finally disappears. This is the first clue about where to set your crossover.

Though we don't usually like automobile analogies, think about this. You have a car with a max speed of 120mph. But you understand it would not be most efficient to run it regularly at 120mph. Although your speaker can go down to 44Hz, it is not most efficient to do that. This is the second clue about your crossover.

Since you do have a sub, and taking both the above clues, I would suggest setting your 75Fs to "Small", and setting their crossover at 80Hz. See how that sounds to you. Then try a crossover at 60Hz. See how that sounds. Pick which sounds best to you. Then look at the frequency response specs for your other speakers and repeat for them. (Note: the crossover for your surrounds will almost certainly be higher.)

When you're satisfied, start looking at subs. Check the specs for yours. Then check the specs for the sb2000 and pb2000, and others from SVS, Rythmik and HSU. The same rules as above apply to subs. If the specs don't tell you their freq response is within +/- 3dB or 2dB, the specs are pretty useless. You now know a speaker can be measured to play a frequency, but is actually too soft for you to hear. (For example, "Low Frequency Extension" without a dB level, is useless.)

Thanks so much. A nice clear and considerable response. Every one on this is so great. I appreciate your help and every one else's. I know I'm getting a much better understanding and not just guessing at everything. I hope this question isn't getting repetitive but I'm still unsure Wethersfield if I do this am I going to loose my current calibration. Because I've become enamored with this sound and don't want that to change too much.

 

[lovinthehd]

As to your question about changing speakers between large/small, that will not affect the Audyssey calibration nor will changing crossovers (but note no problem to raise crossovers with Audyssey, but not recommended to lower them) https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/438840-changing-the-cross-over-settings-after-running-audyssey

 

[herbu]

if I do this am I going to loose my current calibration.

No. You will not lose/change your Audyssey calibration.

To me, the Audyssey calibration is useful for 2 main reasons.
1. It assures no speakers are out of phase.
2. It levels the volume of all speakers.

I never mess w/ #1. The distance measurement Audyssey assigns to each speaker is left alone. Even if I know it is wrong, Audyssey sets it there for a reason.

#2 is a starting point and absolutely fair game for adjustments to personal taste. For example, my wife's chair is closer to the Right Surround speaker than mine. The balanced volume is too loud for her. So I turn it down. Same for subwoofer adjustments. I use louder for TV/movies, less for music.

So feel free to make adjustments in volumes and crossovers w/o having to re-run Audyssey. If you add or rearrange your furniture, or move your speakers, or get new speakers, you should re-run.

 

[PENG]

Thanks every one for your help. I'm still a bit unclear will I need to recalibrate with Audisey after changing the speaker size and bring the crossover to 80 allowing my subs amp to do any sounds below 80. But do I recalibrate.

I don't see anyone saying you need to re-do Audyssey. I did say in my post#7 that you should run Audyssey first and then go back and change the front speakers back to small and set crossovers to 80 Hz (meaning after Audyssey run has been completed).

If you have already run Audyssey then obviously you don't need to re-do it unless you are not sure you did it right the first time following Marantz or Audyssey's instructions. For example, did you set the subwoofer's low frequency filter (Paradigm may call in 'cut-off' frequency) to maximum or "Bypass" if it has that setting and the phase alignment to 0 degree?

Again, only re-run Audyssey if you did not follow the detailed procedure the first time. I know people think it is easy to run Audyssey as the procedure is simple, but if you deviate from it you can make things worse so I always suggest reading the instructions first instead of just following the onscreen one, and follow it to the letter.

http://www.audyssey.com/technologies/multeq/how-to

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

No. You will not lose/change your Audyssey calibration.

To me, the Audyssey calibration is useful for 2 main reasons.
1. It assures no speakers are out of phase.
2. It levels the volume of all speakers.

I never mess w/ #1. The distance measurement Audyssey assigns to each speaker is left alone. Even if I know it is wrong, Audyssey sets it there for a reason.

#2 is a starting point and absolutely fair game for adjustments to personal taste. For example, my wife's chair is closer to the Right Surround speaker than mine. The balanced volume is too loud for her. So I turn it down. Same for subwoofer adjustments. I use louder for TV/movies, less for music.

So feel free to make adjustments in volumes and crossovers w/o having to re-run Audyssey. If you add or rearrange your furniture, or move your speakers, or get new speakers, you should re-run.

Ok, so we are all clear. One does not have to rerun any automatic calibration system, even if you change from let's say 80hz down to 60hz ? After such systems. And why wouldn't you just set all speakers sizes to small , and set crossover prior to running the system. ? And just skip that step.

 

[fuzz092888]

Ok, so we are all clear. One does not have to rerun any automatic calibration system, even if you change from let's say 80hz down to 60hz ? After such systems. And why wouldn't you just set all speakers sizes to small , and set crossover prior to running the system. ? And just skip that step.

Because when you run the auto cal it basically resets everything to defaults and then makes changes from before. IOW, it erases any changes you made prior to running autocal.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Because when you run the auto cal it basically resets everything to defaults and then makes changes from before. IOW, it erases any changes you made prior to running autocal.

I understand. When I ran YPAO I only used the (distance) set up and (level). Speaker size and crossover I did manually. I have an option to skip various steps .

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

So Audyssey does not allow the user to skip various steps of the auto calibration?

 

[fuzz092888]

So Audyssey does not allow the user to skip various steps of the auto calibration?

More or less. You can run a minimum of 3 sweeps and not any more, but in terms of choosing what it does and doesn't do you don't really have a choice unless you get the pro setup.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Ok. I get it now. Yea with YPAO you can skip any of the various steps in the calibration. So I've only had to run level and distance. I can set size and crossover before hand. I don't need the calibration system doing that, or wiring , or the EQ feature. Thank you for clearing that up. I just couldn't understand why everyone's always telling everybody after running Audyssey to change speaker size and crossover back to small and 80hz. Thanks