If you've got kids (or grand-kids) in public school, you really should read this.

[Rickster71]

Rickster, you seem to have a personal grudge against educators. Did you have a bad experience in school? Or is it you think we have it too easy?

Ad hominems aside, this isn't about me.
It's about the main point of the OP's article.
It's about the way you dismissed the Cartel Movie as propaganda. (without seeing it)
It's the way you also dismissed the dismal global rankings of U.S. schools; compared to the obscene monies we spend on it.

When a person working in the private sector goes in for an annual evaluation, they don't have the luxury of blaming the system, or the customer.
And even if they did; if expectations aren't met, the are let go.

I've been in teaching for 10+ years and our operating budgets have been cut every single year. If that is throwing money at the problem, apparently I work in the wrong district.

This article states that the NCLB Act cost taxpayers well over $100 Billion. http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/search/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=EJ683120&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=EJ683120
That's partially what was meant by throwing good money after bad.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

 

[Alex2507]

Rickster, you seem to have a personal grudge against educators. Did you have a bad experience in school? Or is it you think we have it too easy?

I think you may be on to something on both counts. He did have a teacher try to rearrange his face and it is a pretty sweet gig. I mean it beats being a plumber.

Regarding the original post I think it's important to differentiate that nearly 1/4 of the people who try to join the Army are too stoopid to get in ... not 1/4 of the people who graduate high school are too stupid to join the Army. Still, most of this is the fault of pzaur.

 

[lsiberian]

Why? When you wrote the Cartel Movie off as "propaganda."
That movie brings attention to a huge problem that the average taxpayer wasn't aware of.
Our country simply throws money at our education system, under the guise of, "Do it for the children"
Who are we kidding?
The Union Leaders and their members won't allow changes; they're making a living (with summers off) maintaining the status quo.
Isn't it always the way? People benefiting from the broken system, are the very ones to yell "propaganda"
As I mentioned in an earlier post; I'll bet you didn't even see the movie, that you claim is propaganda.

I've been in teaching for 10+ years and our operating budgets have been cut every single year. If that is throwing money at the problem, apparently I work in the wrong district.

Rickster, you seem to have a personal grudge against educators. Did you have a bad experience in school? Or is it you think we have it too easy? If so, I encourage you to volunteer or get involved with a local school to see what is really involved in teaching. It's not the cakewalk many think it is. If you think the workday ends when the last bell rings, you are mistaken. I'm willing to bet when your work day ends, that's it and you can go home and not think about work until the next day. Teachers have to be prepared before showing up for work the next day. Sometimes that means staying late to set up labs, sometimes grading papers or tests, but it's usually something and that's not counting coaching or club activities.

Yes, the union sometimes protects poor teachers and that is something that needs to be fixed. The example of the NJ teacher making over 90k a year is ridiculous, though I was floored by the amount. Around here, the max at retirement is around $68k with a masters degree and an additional 30 credits. As for the union not allowing changes, it is only partly true. The largest barriers to change are state laws already in place. If you are unhappy about them, I suggest getting in touch with your congressmen/women and let them know how you feel.

A Luvers Tiff.

 

[lsiberian]

I think you may be on to something on both counts. He did have a teacher try to rearrange his face and it is a pretty sweet gig. I mean it beats being a plumber.

Regarding the original post I think it's important to differentiate that nearly 1/4 of the people who try to join the Army are too stoopid to get in ... not 1/4 of the people who graduate high school are too stupid to join the Army. Still, most of this is the fault of pzaur.

Yeah the smart kids go for the Navy, Air Force or Marines actually.

 

[Alex2507]

Yeah the smart kids go for the Navy ...

I hear that in the Navy they are going to allow hand holding while at attention now that Obama has repealed the Don't Ask Don't Tell laws so if that's what you call smart ... whatever.

 

[lsiberian]

I hear that in the Navy they are going to allow hand holding while at attention now that Obama has repealed the Don't Ask Don't Tell laws so if that's what you call smart ... whatever.

Well I heard recruiting is at an all time high.

 

[Alex2507]

Well I heard recruiting is at an all time high.

NTTAWWT.

 

[Nemo128]

The example of the NJ teacher making over 90k a year is ridiculous, though I was floored by the amount.

I recently learned that teachers at Central High School in Newark NJ were making $82k a year while consistently producing subpar academic marks in their classrooms. The current mayor, Cory Booker, tried to instill salary caps and pay-for-performance for the teachers in the city. The teacher's union has supported the political campaigns of both his election opponents for the last two elections. He also tried to get the police unions to work more conducive hours to stopping crime. For example, he has said in public forums "The gang unit works 9 to 5, Monday to Friday. Gangs don't work 9 to 5, Monday to Friday." The police union also contributed to his opponents.

This is just two examples of how someone who wants to do something about the situation can get crapped on by the very people who are supposedly out for our best interest. Please no one turn this into political mudslinging or some religious rant. I'm making a point about people trying to make things better that get resistance from people whose pockets are lined by maintaining the status quo. It's about greed, plain and simple, regardless of what side of the aisle someone sits on or what deity they worship.

 

[just-some-guy]

around here:

the school system is for the teachers and staff. the kids are just a conduit to the money.

their is a "retired" gym teacher somewhere here in IL, that is getting around $180,000 a year !!! FREAKIN RETIRED ! AHHHHHHHHH
and there are a lot of examples similar to this.

it is not uncommon for administrators to get well over $200,000 a year.

 

[just-some-guy]

oh

and they are constantly asking for more money

 

[Stereodude]

They're not called teachers anymore, they're called Educators.

 

[KEW]

I think another big issue with the success of our educational system is the culture of youth.

It seems to me that much of today's youth lives more for "today" and less for their future.

Unfortunately, it has become more and more the teacher's responsibility to provide motivation for the student to learn!

I'm not sure who is responsible for this culture change. I'd guess partly parents and partly media.

I taught at a smaller university for a few years and it was apparent that the majority of the kids were there simply because it was the "default agenda".
In some cases, they were simply being compliant with parent plans, in others, it was a "no-brainer" to go to school (aka party - in some cases) on the parent's dollar, rather than go out and work.
There were students who were self-motivated to get an education, but the majority of them had gone from high school to work and were then paying their own way through school on a part-time basis to improve their own lot in life.

In any case, preparing classes and grading is a pretty decent task, but when you add in trying to figure ways to motivate apathetic students to learn, it becomes a challenge well beyond the pay (which did not begin to compare to the figures being thrown around here).

I like to think and hope the level of self-motivation is better at the major universities.

 

[KEW]

This only covers a few states, but it does show some pay rate data.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary/by_Years_Experience

I'd like to see some citations on the high pay rates being thrown out here. I suspect they do exist, but have a hard time believing they don't represent extreme (and unusual) cases!

 

[just-some-guy]

i would not try to motivate kids. i would simply tell them "you want to not learn, you want to be a dumb *** ? well, go ahead, the world needs dumb ***'s" .

aka my wage claims. i read them in the daily news paper, about 2 weeks ago.

 

[just-some-guy]

here. take a look at this.
we ARE being RAPED

http://www.illinoisloop.org/salary.html

 

[Rickster71]

Rickster, you seem to have a personal grudge against educators. Did you have a bad experience in school? Or is it you think we have it too easy? If so, I encourage you to volunteer....

I think you may be on to something on both counts. He did have a teacher try to rearrange his face, and (teaching) is a pretty sweet gig. I mean it beats being a plumber.

That's funny; though my motivation is this:
I was looking over our finances the other day, and realized my wife and I have paid $48,000 in school taxes in the last 18 years.
(not including property taxes)
That's with never having a child in the school system, and with both of our parents paying for us to go to parochial schools. So in effect our parents have paid into the system twice, and we have paid for services never rendered. All for a school system that's globally ranked at the bottom in reading scores, and near the bottom in math and science.

After countless hours of volunteering in my community and giving 15 years as a volunteer firefighter, in a town that averages 400 fires a year.(all for free)
I can't believe some people complain about teaching jobs with summers off.
(Not saying that Oppmann99 has complained) In NJ the school year is 183 days with summers off; and they still complain.
Frankly, I feel used.

 

[markw]

Agree, but the problem with this is...

i would not try to motivate kids. i would simply tell them "you want to not learn, you want to be a dumb *** ? well, go ahead, the world needs dumb ***'s" .

aka my wage claims. i read them in the daily news paper, about 2 weeks ago.

...that the government mandates that every child be educated.

Ever heard the old ciche, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"?

Now, I agree that those that don't want to learn (for whatever reason) should be removed from the system. That would cut down a lot of wasted efforts and allow the system to concentrate on those that truly want an education.

But, some find it a gold mine claiming that if you simply throw more money at the losers, they can be educated. Yeah, we here in Jersey can really see how well that's working. ...people gettin' rich and we're still turning out world-class dummies.

...and I'm not saying everyone in the system is guilty of this, just those in control of making these decisions.

 

[JohnA]

On the OP,

I have seen this first hand with my daughter. She started 1st grade this year and it wasn't until almost the end of the 1st semester that she was bringing home homework to do. We asked her teacher as to why it took so long to get homework and she said that they needed to hold off on homework because so many students were passed to 1st grade from K even though they didn't have the scores to get to 1st grade. Some couldn't even count to 10 or do the alphabet...

So we asked for more homework for my daughter... She loves math and gets through 2 pages in about 5-10 mins...she needed more to keep her interest.

 

[oppman99]

That's funny; though my motivation is this:
I was looking over our finances the other day, and realized my wife and I have paid $48,000 in school taxes in the last 18 years.
(not including property taxes)
That's with never having a child in the school system, and with both of our parents paying for us to go to parochial schools. So in effect our parents have paid into the system twice, and we have paid for services never rendered. All for a school system that's globally ranked at the bottom in reading scores, and near the bottom in math and science.

After countless hours of volunteering in my community and giving 15 years as a volunteer firefighter, in a town that averages 400 fires a year.(all for free)
I can't believe some people complain about teaching jobs with summers off.
(Not saying that Oppmann99 has complained) In NJ the school year is 183 days with summers off; and they still complain.
Frankly, I feel used.

Rick, thank you for sharing your view. I may not agree with it completely, but I can understand where you are coming from. I think we can both agree just throwing money at the problem won't fix it. I hope I didn't come across that way. Spending money more effectively/efficiently is what needs to be done, not just in education, but with all government funds.

I will admit, the summers off is a big perk. For many of us it is needed to rejuvinate and come back ready to go and prevent burnout. To give an example, a former coworker left teaching due to job cuts and went into the private sector. I asked her if I was hard not having summers off. She responded that she didn't need it because the stress level of her new job was so much less. Many of us use the summer to continue our education to improve our knowledge base and meet the license renewal requirements. Personally, I've only had one summer truely "off" and that was due to knee surgery. It's easy to criticize any professions we haven't worked in. (Not saying you were criticizing Rick). Admittedly, there are many not so great people in my profession that give the rest of us a bad reputation and it drives me crazy. As far as pay goes, I've actually figured out my hourly salary. It works out to be about $20/hour. Considering I have a master's degree plus, I don't feel that it's an outrageous amount. Anyone can feel free to disagree, but I don't need to hear about it.

What I'm trying to say is I'm not defending the whole system and while I benefit from it, I don't feel I'm taking advantage. Just trying to share my perspective. I feel I make a fair living playing by the rules established long before I started teaching.