if I have a Good AVR, do I need a DAC?

[landrum]

I'm finally at a point in my life where I can afford to dip my toe into the upper end of budget audio systems. I'm going to put the system together slowly (as budget allows) and I intend to spend $1500 - $2000 on an AVR and floor standing speakers. I'll get the universal player, center and surrounds later.

I read a glowing review of the Musical Fidelity M1 Dac and it got me thinking about DAC's and what place they would have in my system. For example, if I bought a higher end Denon unit, it would come with a Burr Brown DAC. Am I correct to think that having a separate DAC like the M1 would be a waste? Along those lines, it seems that getting a high quality universal player like the OPPO 95 would make the DAC in the AVR irrelevant, although I'm not exactly sure what the relationship between the two devices would be and which DAC would supersede the other.

Can anybody please explain to me under what circumstance having a separate DAC would be useful, and what the relationship between the DAC in the OPPO, the DAC in the AVR and the DAC in the separate component is?

Thanks very much

 

[mtrycrafts]

...

I read a glowing review of the Musical Fidelity M1 Dac and it got me thinking about DAC's and what place they would have in my system. For example, if I bought a higher end Denon unit, it would come with a Burr Brown DAC. Am I correct to think that having a separate DAC like the M1 would be a waste? .....

Welcome.

Be careful with those 'glowing review' of audio components

Yes, your thinking is correct about wasting your $$$ on an M1.

 

[sholling]

The DACs built into most AVRs are pretty good I'd use that money for something else. Remember to pick out your speakers and then choose the receiver based on the needs of the speakers. A good ratio is 25-33% on the receiver and the rest going to the speakers and subwoofer. The budget for the sub will be driven by the total volume of the room.

Where you might use an external DAC is when going to an integrated amp or a receiver that lacks a digital input. Older receivers and some modern stereo receivers, and inexpensive desktop amps are examples.

 

[Josuah]

For example, if I bought a higher end Denon unit, it would come with a Burr Brown DAC. Am I correct to think that having a separate DAC like the M1 would be a waste? Along those lines, it seems that getting a high quality universal player like the OPPO 95 would make the DAC in the AVR irrelevant, although I'm not exactly sure what the relationship between the two devices would be and which DAC would supersede the other.

Can anybody please explain to me under what circumstance having a separate DAC would be useful, and what the relationship between the DAC in the OPPO, the DAC in the AVR and the DAC in the separate component is?

The sound quality in any high-end AVR is likely to be very good, although there are a few high-end units which I didn't care for much regardless of price. Likewise, the OPPO players have good sound quality as well.

However, it may not be good for what you're looking for, in the sense that our preferences are very individual. You may prefer the sound character/quality of an external DAC like the Musical Fidelity over that of your AVR. Whether or not it is worth the money depends on you though.

With respect to your last question, the sound character of any component performing digital-to-analog conversion will be a result of many factors, only one of which is the actual DAC chip used. So two units that use the same Wolfson, or TI, or AKG chip may sound very different because of how they are used and the surrounding implementation. In this situation, you have to choose between the one you like best.

If you had an OPPO, and AVR, and a standalone DAC, you would be choosing between using the OPPO DAC by using its analog outputs, the AVR DAC by using its digital inputs, or the standalone DAC by running digital into it and analog from it into your AVR.

 

[DS-21]

I'm finally at a point in my life where I can afford to dip my toe into the upper end of budget audio systems. I'm going to put the system together slowly (as budget allows) and I intend to spend $1500 - $2000 on an AVR and floor standing speakers.

If you're on a budget, the easiest thing to strip out are components that merely duplicate functionality you already have.

Also, keep in mind that to use the most important feature of the AVR - its room correction - all incoming analog signals must be digitized. So all you'd be doing is putting an extraneous A/D-D/A loop in your system. That probably won't hurt anything, but there's also no reason to do it.

***Along those lines, it seems that getting a high quality universal player like the OPPO 95 would make the DAC in the AVR irrelevant,

If budget is an issue, don't get the 95. Get the 93, and connect it to the AVR with a standard HDMI cord. Or, if you don't have DVD-A or SACD disks and don't plan to get them, get a mass market Blu-Ray. Or, what I'd suggest is to change your plans and start looking for DVD-A and SACD disks!

Can anybody please explain to me under what circumstance having a separate DAC would be useful, and what the relationship between the DAC in the OPPO, the DAC in the AVR and the DAC in the separate component is?

DACs in source components or standalone boxes provide backwards compatibility for older preamps/processors/receivers. That's it, and the only reason to use them. With modern gear, it's preferable to keep everything digital and only convert to analog at the end.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I wouldn't waste a dime on any DAC.

For more late night reading enjoyment, may I recommend reading the free archives from The Audio Critic online?

Here you might get enlightened on the subjects of amps, preamp, processors, players, DAC, & cables/wires.

 

[PENG]

If budget is an issue, don't get the 95. Get the 93, and connect it to the AVR with a standard HDMI cord. Or, if you don't have DVD-A or SACD disks and don't plan to get them, get

Excellent points! I made a $565 (after tax but not including the balanced/unbalanced analog interconnects) mistake, should have got the 93, or saved even more by not getting one at all. Well at least now I know the truth for sure, regardless of counter opinions by placebo prone individuals. I am actually quite ambarassed to say all this but I thought it might, just might, help a couple of people not to do what I did...

 

[DS-21]

Excellent points! I made a $565 (after tax but not including the balanced/unbalanced analog interconnects)***

Sometimes we all feel that way. Had Oppo come out with the BDP-80 and BDP-83 at the same time, I certainly would've bought the former.

But why would you use analog interconnects? Your Marantz pre-pro can accept hi-rez digital over HDMI, right?

But for those who want "the best," the BDP-95 is probably the best-built, most "high end" player on the market, regardless of cost. But the digital side of the BDP-93 is the same, and it's also a slimmer package.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... placebo prone individuals. ...

Hey, that is a good title for them.

 

[PENG]

But why would you use analog interconnects? Your Marantz pre-pro can accept hi-rez digital over HDMI, right?

Right, but I thought I had ears that could enjoy the superior DACs in the 95 more. Even after upgrading my speakers, the Burr Brown 1792 in the 4308, AK4358 in the AV7005, Burr Brown 1796 in the DVD3910 all still seem to sound just as good so I no longer use analogs in my HT system. In my 2 channel system I have no reason not to use analogs and my preamps don't take digital inputs anyway.

I should also mention that for those with sensitive ears and enjoy classical music that often has quiet moments, the 95's fan may be audible to them. The 93 does not have a fan.

 

[landrum]

Quote: A good ratio is 25-33% on the receiver and the rest going to the speakers and subwoofer. The budget for the sub will be driven by the total volume of the room.


So... At that math, a Denon 2312 and goldenear triton 3?
Do me a favor, assume the 2312, what floorstanding speakers? I'll get sub and surrounds as budget allows.
Thanks

 

[sholling]

Quote: A good ratio is 25-33% on the receiver and the rest going to the speakers and subwoofer. The budget for the sub will be driven by the total volume of the room.


So... At that math, a Denon 2312 and goldenear triton 3?
Do me a favor, assume the 2312, what floorstanding speakers? I'll get sub and surrounds as budget allows.
Thanks

I've never heard the GoldenEars but the bottom line is that speaker choice is so subjective that you have to decide what you like best. Have you heard them? How big is the room?

 

[landrum]

Room size

I've never heard the GoldenEars but the bottom line is that speaker choice is so subjective that you have to decide what you like best. Have you heard them? How big is the room?

Room is very large. 40 x 25 x 9. It's the entire downstairs of a 2000 sq foot home. Living room, kitchen and dining are all open.

 

[cpp]

My GE's are in a room, 28 x 15 x 10.

 

[DS-21]

***I should also mention that for those with sensitive ears and enjoy classical music that often has quiet moments, the 95's fan may be audible to them. The 93 does not have a fan.

Interesting, I didn't realize that.

I assumed that since my BDP-83 has a fan (albeit one I've never heard) that all of them did.

Quote: A good ratio is 25-33% on the receiver and the rest going to the speakers and subwoofer. The budget for the sub will be driven by the total volume of the room.

Bad advice. There's no fixed percentage. One should spend what's necessary to attain the performance one desires. Often, for electronics, that amounts to very little. For example, there's absolutely nothing "unbalanced" about a system using a $350 receiver and $20k worth of speakers, if those speakers are efficient, easy to drive, and the listener can place them properly in the room.

In some cases, for example when one cannot place speakers optimally, it may make sense to put more of the budget into an AVR to get the best possible room correction system (e.g. ARC, Trinnov, Audyssey XT32). Outside of room correction and, here's really no sonic reason to spend more than $300-400 on an AVR. One may want to spend more to get convenience features (e.g. AirPlay, specific I/O, network compatibility, multiple zones, etc), but that's not a sonic issue.