Identifying Legitimately High Fidelity Loudspeakers - Part 1

[cpp]

gene

NASA spending is a pimple compared to how much we spend on "Defense" spending.

you are dead on. Just for example a new F22 Raptor ( that's just one) is around $150 million back in 09 and more than five years and nearly $80 billion after the world's most expensive fighter jets joined the U.S. military fleet, the high-tech stealth F-22 Raptor has yet to see combat -- despite the U.S. Air Force's involvement in three simultaneous major combat operations. Of course the F22 program is dead for now, but the planes still exist and waiting for battle.

Just think of the benefit of $80 billion applied towards the funding for small businesses that would support new jobs and maybe even money given to a few small businesses building affordable and quality audio equipment for consumers right here in the US

 

[TLS Guy]

Boy, talk about a thread going off the tracks!

Only if you take a micro view, not if you take a macro view.

The fact is that due to globalization and corporate acquisitions, excellence is getting to be a rarer and rarer commodity.

Excellence is speakers is one small part caught up in the whirl wind, created by idiot corporate bosses, short sighted government policies, bankers and hedge fund types with criminal ethics.

If we return to speakers, lets take Rolla Celestion. They produced really fine speakers, from a program of innovative research. They pioneered laser interferometry and pushed the science of cone design forward. Speakers from that body of research still fetch high prices on Audiogon and eBay, and with good reason.

So they got acquired by Goldmark industries out of Hong Kong. Now nothing but absolute junk is produced. This outfit also bought KEF. Recent offerings from KEF that I have auditioned, have been way less than stellar.

All this has accelerated the race to the bottom, and made the search for excellence a longer tougher road.

What if Billy Woodman retires and sells ATC? The the worlds finest mid range driver is threatened.

If the Scandinavian driver manufacturers succumb to the Far Eastern onslaught we are in dire straights. If they acquire the likes of B & W also we are really sunk.

Credit is flowing in the Far East. As you will see from some of my links, European credit markets are now frozen.

We have allowed a potentially disastrous situation to develop, and the loudspeaker business and pursuit of excellence is just one of many set backs caught up in this downward spiral.

This is all made worse by the fact that is no clear picture of where this will all lead. What is worse is that anybody with an ounce of intellectual honesty, has not got a clue of what to do about it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So they got acquired by Goldmark industries out of Hong Kong. Now nothing but absolute junk is produced. This outfit also bought KEF. Recent offerings from KEF that I have auditioned, have been way less than stellar.

They did not seem to adversely affect the KEF Q900 speakers, reviewed and measured by Home Theater Magazine and Stereophile, and got superb speaker measurements.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If the Scandinavian driver manufacturers succumb to the Far Eastern onslaught we are in dire straights. If they acquire the likes of B & W also we are really sunk.

B&W 800 Diamond:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/bampw-800-diamond-loudspeaker-measurements

Now the actual sound of the 800D-series may be solid, but their off-axis/polar responses are well-known to be rather poor (802D, 800 D).

John Atkinson quote:

Overall, the B&W 800 Diamond's measured performance suggests that its balance has been optimized by listening; the various small departures from neutrality tend to balance one another. What surprised me was how similar its behavior in the test lab was to B&W's 802D, which Kal Rubinson reviewed in December 2005.

What if someone else could improve the speaker measurements of these B&W and give them SUPERB speaker measurements (KEF 207/2, 201/2, Q900)?

 

[3db]

B&W 800 Diamond:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/bampw-800-diamond-loudspeaker-measurements

Now the actual sound of the 800D-series may be solid, but their off-axis/polar responses are well-known to be rather poor (802D, 800 D).

John Atkinson quote:

Overall, the B&W 800 Diamond's measured performance suggests that its balance has been optimized by listening; the various small departures from neutrality tend to balance one another. What surprised me was how similar its behavior in the test lab was to B&W's 802D, which Kal Rubinson reviewed in December 2005.

What if someone else could improve the speaker measurements of these B&W and give them SUPERB speaker measurements (KEF 207/2, 201/2, Q900)?

You gotta a lot of nerver trying to bring this thread back on topic.

 

[randyb]

Its coming to a head faster than I thought. I just checked the European press.

Take a close look also to the articles on the links on the right.

There must be NO more bank bailouts. We must take to the streets if it is suggested.

Perhaps a depression or it's equivalent, decades long recession is inevitable. Hope not. Then again Wall Street is rallying.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You gotta a lot of nerver trying to bring this thread back on topic.

I mean who among us would object to B&W (and EVERY SINGLE speaker out there) having superb speaker measurements?

I'm not evil.

I want all speakers to measure well, and I want everyone to get along and have world peace.

I want B&W and every company to prosper. I don't want umemployment!

I mean the B&W speakers may sound great, but wouldn't it be nice if they could also perfect the very important off-axis/polar responses too?

See, I care. Only a true friend would point out such things and not just say that everything is peachy.

But really, I recently emailed B&W and asked them why the 802D and newer 800 Diamond did rather poorly on their horizontal off-axis response.

The response from the B&W was that their vertical off-axis responses were rather decent, omitting completely about the horizontal off-axis!

I responded to the email and asked for further clarification. I also sent another brand new email in addition. I got nothing back. They completely blew me off!!!

 

[3db]

Perhaps a depression or it's equivalent, decades long recession is inevitable. Hope not. Then again Wall Street is rallying.

Wall street is out of touch with the rest of the world and the brokers being puppets to investors who are into extreme short term planning. They react on greed..as an example gas prices jumping up because of Irene as an example...and it never touched the oil fields in the gulf.

 

[krabapple]

Just nonsensical cost cutting, unless the woofers are also sealed (not ported) for a true THX style speaker that rolls off 12db/octave below 80hz, intended for use with a subwoofer ONLY in a THX sub crossover and explicitly stated.

*sigh*

Please excuse the diversion, but this seems a fine place to ask...are the specific criteria defining a 'THX-style speaker' available anywhere to the public? THX's own site was opaque on this, at least to my searching.

 

[krabapple]

They didn't sound "bad" but not as good as I expected given all the Harman theory. Seems like their theory is best applied to JBL pro and Revel however.

Well, Harman theory is also that while good loudspeakers will tend to be preferred on average, it's best to evaluate them in a comparative DBT situation, to rule out psychological effects that consciously and unconsiously bias your perception of quality. Who knows how those consumer JBL centers might have fared in that situation? (Sean Olive, probably.)

 

[gene]

Well, Harman theory is also that while good loudspeakers will tend to be preferred on average, it's best to evaluate them in a comparative DBT situation, to rule out psychological effects that consciously and unconsiously bias your perception of quality. Who knows how those consumer JBL centers might have fared in that situation? (Sean Olive, probably.)

I don't need a blind test to determine good vs bad sound just like I don't need a blind test to determine a good or bad tasting piece of steak or a slow vs fast car. Blind tests are useful for fleshing out small differences of sound or other stimuli but their importance tends to be a bit overstated especially when there are very obvious differences between two stimuli.

 

[krabapple]

I don't need a blind test to determine good vs bad sound just like I don't need a blind test to determine a good or bad tasting piece of steak or a slow vs fast car. Blind tests are useful for fleshing out small differences of sound or other stimuli but their importance tends to be a bit overstated especially when there are very obvious differences between two stimuli.

Harman's tests aren't ABX, they're not about establishing whether loudspeakers tend to sound the same or different -- I don't think anyone questions that they tend to sound at least different -- the Harman method is about getting the fairest, most bias-free evaluation of comparative sound quality. That means randomized, blind and with trained listeners. Since *preference* is being evaluated, rather than simple difference, the fact the a difference is obvious doesn't eliminate the value of blind comparison. As Olive has shown, sometimes even seasoned audio gear reviewers have surprising preference results when they are 'blinded' vs 'sighted'.

So it would still be interesting to me to see how those JBLs would perform in the Harman test setup, with trained listeners like yourself.

 

[gene]

Harman's tests aren't ABX, they're not about establishing whether loudspeakers tend to sound the same or different -- I don't think anyone questions that they tend to sound at least different -- the Harman method is about getting the fairest, most bias-free evaluation of comparative sound quality. That means randomized, blind and with trained listeners. Since *preference* is being evaluated, rather than simple difference, the fact the a difference is obvious doesn't eliminate the value of blind comparison. As Olive has shown, sometimes even seasoned audio gear reviewers have surprising preference results when they are 'blinded' vs 'sighted'.

So it would still be interesting to me to see how those JBLs would perform in the Harman test setup, with trained listeners like yourself.

I am well aware of the Harman test procedure and what its purpose is for. They even invited me out there to run through their tests which I plan on doing one of these days. They don't abuse the results of their testing or declare they make speakers that can't be beat regardless of price. I respect their efforts!

 

[GO-NAD!]

Only if you take a micro view, not if you take a macro view.

The fact is that due to globalization and corporate acquisitions, excellence is getting to be a rarer and rarer commodity.

Excellence is speakers is one small part caught up in the whirl wind, created by idiot corporate bosses, short sighted government policies, bankers and hedge fund types with criminal ethics.

If we return to speakers, lets take Rolla Celestion. They produced really fine speakers, from a program of innovative research. They pioneered laser interferometry and pushed the science of cone design forward. Speakers from that body of research still fetch high prices on Audiogon and eBay, and with good reason.

So they got acquired by Goldmark industries out of Hong Kong. Now nothing but absolute junk is produced. This outfit also bought KEF. Recent offerings from KEF that I have auditioned, have been way less than stellar.

All this has accelerated the race to the bottom, and made the search for excellence a longer tougher road.

What if Billy Woodman retires and sells ATC? The the worlds finest mid range driver is threatened.

If the Scandinavian driver manufacturers succumb to the Far Eastern onslaught we are in dire straights. If they acquire the likes of B & W also we are really sunk.

Credit is flowing in the Far East. As you will see from some of my links, European credit markets are now frozen.

We have allowed a potentially disastrous situation to develop, and the loudspeaker business and pursuit of excellence is just one of many set backs caught up in this downward spiral.

This is all made worse by the fact that is no clear picture of where this will all lead. What is worse is that anybody with an ounce of intellectual honesty, has not got a clue of what to do about it.

I certainly see your point and I'll accept that it's kinda relevant. However, the title of the article is Identifying Legitimately High Fidelity Loudspeakers, not Identifying The Mass Of Crappy Loudspeakers Due To Globalization/Offshoring of Manufacturing. It also isn't a primer on micro- or macro- economics. In other words, the article is meant to help readers judge the quality of a speaker according to the quality of the components and assembly, as well as the soundness of the design. If a high quality loudspeaker happens to be manufactured in China or on Mars, that quality will speak for itself.

Doc, you know more about loudspeakers than I ever will. I don't know if any of the loudspeakers manufactured in China can be considered "high fidelity". Considering the large number of models built there, I have a hard time believing that there are none.

I think it's all about judging a loudspeaker on its on merits, not where it came from. As for the economics aspect, it may be related to the topic - but only on the fringes.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Please excuse the diversion, but this seems a fine place to ask...are the specific criteria defining a 'THX-style speaker' available anywhere to the public? THX's own site was opaque on this, at least to my searching.

Most likely not as they guard their specs like a secret which it is and should be as they license companies who want to get certification, but you know this.
Perhaps, there is a leak someplace.

 

[MinusTheBear]

SoundStage recently released an article on high performance speakers. Out of the best reasonably priced speakers they left out Infinity and Ascend Acoustics. The list is mostly advertiser driven with the exception of Revel, Def Tech and a few others. Some nice speakers mentioned none the less.

http://www.soundstage.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=295:high-performance-loudspeakers-the-leaders&catid=62:monthly-column&Itemid=3

 

[ruzveh]

Consumers are fools

Yea consumers are fool, this is what most of the salesman and the companies think when they design a product or sell them in the market. I myself being a salesman has never thought like this and always respected consumers and their taste. Afterall it is the long term relationship of these consumers and the salesman. Being truthful is our moral job.

I agree with the author here and would like to request all that you should always audition speakers before you buy or before you hear those technical terms from the companies. This is where you will get the most out of your money. Please remember that most of the speakers reviews are utter bullshit and fully useless.

I am very unhappy the way speakers are tested and auditioned by the reviewers. They tend to use lots of jargon's and other stuffs which we are unaware of. I guess they must be paid to review by these companies.

I have seen 1000's of reviews across all sites and the trusted and reliable ones i guess are the ones which are reviewed by the users / owners themselves, so place like amazon becomes my primary search for the genuine review. Yea i know there are some fake reviews as well where someone must have posted to attract consumers to buy them. I dont like the fact that these people test such crappy music on their systems which most of us never tend to listen to them or might be listening hardly 0.1% of the time.

Please keep in mind that different speakers behave and sound differently with different music. If you hear piano, instrumental or classic you have a speaker which may not sound equally good with rock, pop, heavy metal, etc.

So why dont these reviewers play and audition those tracks which we hear the most and tell us that how much is the dept of those music. This is a better way for me to recognize a sound from a speaker, isnt it?

Reviewers only test the movies and say its awesome, now what the hell will i know what is awesome? Please mention which scene you played and what awesome you liked about it?

We also want reviewers to open the speakers and find the black magic within like how computer components are tested. Please learn from them or simply admitted that you are not educated.

Too much i have spoken and written about it. Thankyou and sorry if you felt bad

 

[fmw]

Good article. I was confused by the margin calculations. In the retail business (of which I have been a part all my life) calculates margin or markup or gross profit as selling price - cost / selling price. Your calculation is selling price - cost / cost. We refer to the latter as mark on and I'm not aware of a single retailer that uses it. A 50% margin means the selling is price is twice the cost. A selling price of 1.5 times the cost is a 33% margin or gross profit. Is the audio industry different from all the others?