i want to a system that sounds like a rave concert

adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
JL audio 13w7 (correct me Isiberian) in a good box (someone said it will work well in the Kappa box) will easily put out 120dB, if not 125-130 in a smaller room with a EP2500. Build $4k worth of those and pair them with some decent mids and you'll bleed your ears pretty easily for $10k.
Wrong kind of subs for the application. 120db is nothing compared to the 140+ that can be achieved in some pro subs. Granted those pro subs are garbage for HT, but you gotta get the right sub for HT. He wont have much need for anything less than about 35hz
 
F

fomoz

Enthusiast
From what I'm reading, the JTR stuff will destroy the Yammy stuff at the same price point. That said, Yamaha makes some nice stuff and I'm sure you'd be happy.
I'm sorry, I made a typo in the post where I calculated the price. I meant to say the following:

$1200 (2xS215V) + $1260 (2xSW218V) + 2x$330 (EP2500) + $350 (EP4000) + $260 (DCX2496) = $3730 (everything new)

I haven't found the JTR speakers on eBay, so according to the retail price on their website the speakers would cost twice as much as the Yamahas. The question is - would they be twice as good and would it be worth it for my application or would people not even notice?

By the way, how much power would either set up use? The Yamaha's subs and speakers are rated at 2400w and 2000w max each respectively, so that makes 8800w max total. The JBL setup would be 1600w for each sub and 1200w for each triple 8, so that makes 5600w max total. How much would it use in reality though? Would I need at least an 8800w or 5600w generator for each setup respectively, or could I get away with less?
 
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adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
I'm sorry, I made a typo in the post where I calculated the price. I meant to say the following:

$1200 (2xS215V) + $1260 (2xSW218V) + 2x$330 (EP2500) + $350 (EP4000) + $260 (DCX2496) = $3730 (everything new)

I haven't found the JTR speakers on eBay, so according to the retail price on their website the speakers would cost twice as much as the Yamahas. The question is - would they be twice as good and would it be worth it for my application or would people not even notice?

By the way, how much power would either set up use? The Yamaha's subs and speakers are rated at 2400w and 2000w max each respectively, so that makes 8800w max total. The JBL setup would be 1600w for each sub and 1200w for each triple 8, so that makes 5600w max total. How much would it use in reality though? Would I need at least an 8800w or 5600w generator for each setup respectively, or could I get away with less?
You dont NEED that much power, but 3 EP2500 would get it in either case. You're not going to go wrong with the yamaha stuff. I've never heard anything in the PA world that made me go WOW until I heard the T12's and growlers. Just sayin... But, the yammy gear would easily serve the purpose.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Wrong kind of subs for the application. 120db is nothing compared to the 140+ that can be achieved in some pro subs. Granted those pro subs are garbage for HT, but you gotta get the right sub for HT. He wont have much need for anything less than about 35hz
You may be unfamiliar with the 13w7, but it's a car audio sub that can be used in home theater. It's much stronger in music applications and would easily meet the output requirements for most pro audio applications if built in a proper box.

However I don't think that's the right direction for this guys needs. I think a danly subs/jtr setup would be great, but the OP is a college student and i'm concerned it may force him to eat ramen for a semester. Plus with an inexperienced user bad things can happen even to great speakers.

My suggestion is get a small dj setup and then if you need something more. Add to it.

There is no reason you can have 4 speakers down the road.

Zzounds give a 30 day trial on equipment. I suggest you get a small setup with a xeny mixer, A500 and a pair of Eurolive PA's. Toss in a small sub and see if that works for you.

If not ship them back and look at more expensive setups.

As far as JTR/ Danley goes. They are just sick setups period. But I suggest you get your feet wet on something smaller and work your way up. For music I suggest an small portable laptop or an ipod.

For speakers a single EP2500 can drive 2 in most cases with ease.

Be as simple as possible. with your hookups. If you can get a powered mixer to drive the speakers do it. Don't complicate this stuff. Complications introduce places for bugs.
 
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fomoz

Enthusiast
Thanks for your info in the above post!

I don't understand why you said that I'm a college student though...

Anyway, as a source I'm going to be using either a Sandisk Sansa Fuze MP3 player or a laptop + Audigy2 ZS PCMCIA card, with all audio in FLAC format.

Btw, I'm ready to spend $5k USD on the complete setup (preferably including the generator). Can you please elaborate on the amps though? If the each sub is rated at 2400w peak, why would a 2400w amp be enough to drive two of them? Wouldn't it be safer to just spend an extra $20 and have an EP4000 power each pair?
 
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H

Highbar

Senior Audioholic
Just to throw another option out at you. Check out JBL pro stuff. I'm surprised that no one has suggested them yet. Their pro stuff is pretty impressive and will be able to meet your needs without a doubt. Heck it's what we use in the venue I work at, and there's plenty of chest pounding nights :D:D Stick with the same electronics for power and you're good to go.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Just to throw another option out at you. Check out JBL pro stuff. I'm surprised that no one has suggested them yet. Their pro stuff is pretty impressive and will be able to meet your needs without a doubt. Heck it's what we use in the venue I work at, and there's plenty of chest pounding nights :D:D Stick with the same electronics for power and you're good to go.
They are good too and they even have outdoor stuff I believe.

I'm just trying to keep the price down for him.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Thanks for your info in the above post!

I don't understand why you said that I'm a college student though...

Anyway, as a source I'm going to be using either a Sandisk Sansa Fuze MP3 player or a laptop + Audigy2 ZS PCMCIA card, with all audio in FLAC format.

Btw, I'm ready to spend $5k USD on the complete setup (preferably including the generator). Can you please elaborate on the amps though? If the each sub is rated at 2400w peak, why would a 2400w amp be enough to drive two of them? Wouldn't it be safer to just spend an extra $20 and have an EP4000 power each pair?
I get threads mixed up some time.

The EP2500 and EP4000 are the exact same amplifiers.(just rebranded)

I'd budget 1000 to 1500 for a generator.


You need more than 2x the power to make a significant difference in audio

So 2500 to 4000 isn't significant anyway

1000 watts will get you 30+ (sensitivity of speaker) in spl. Since this is a generator based setup I will suggest you look for high sensitivity speakers.

Direct Sales
847-714-6878
sales@jtrspeakers.com

get a pair of 8's and a single growler. That's 3k, but see if you can't get a deal the economy is a bit tough right now.:)

That leaves you with enough for a pair of EP2500's and a USB Mixer.
 
H

Highbar

Senior Audioholic
I get threads mixed up some time.

The EP2500 and EP4000 are the exact same amplifiers.(just rebranded)

I'd budget 1000 to 1500 for a generator.


You need more than 2x the power to make a significant difference in audio

So 2500 to 4000 isn't significant anyway

1000 watts will get you 30+ (sensitivity of speaker) in spl. Since this is a generator based setup I will suggest you look for high sensitivity speakers.

Direct Sales
847-714-6878
sales@jtrspeakers.com

get a pair of 8's and a single growler. That's 3k, but see if you can't get a deal the economy is a bit tough right now.:)

That leaves you with enough for a pair of EP2500's and a USB Mixer.
Didn't we have a thread about using generators with audio equipment not too long ago, and it ended up that only pretty expensive ones would be able to deal with the dynamics of music? I'm pretty sure any of these setups would eat a generator alive :eek::eek:
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Didn't we have a thread about using generators with audio equipment not too long ago, and it ended up that only pretty expensive ones would be able to deal with the dynamics of music? I'm pretty sure any of these setups would eat a generator alive :eek::eek:
I was thinking it might, but maybe he already has a great generator.

Or a hug reserve tank for gas.
 
F

fomoz

Enthusiast
I don't own a generator... ugh this is all sounding way too complicated, I'll just stick to afterhours. Plus, a ticket to an organized outdoor rave here is $100 for 3 days, I think thats hard to beat, and I wouldn't have to carry heavy equipment and look for a van.

thanks guys, I learned a lot in this thread :)
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
I don't own a generator... ugh this is all sounding way too complicated, I'll just stick to afterhours. Plus, a ticket to an organized outdoor rave here is $100 for 3 days, I think thats hard to beat, and I wouldn't have to carry heavy equipment and look for a van.

thanks guys, I learned a lot in this thread :)
LOL. It is complicated to most folks. To me it's simple, but this is my hobby.
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
A live/rave sound system is nothing like home theater system. Live systems use high powerer amps that often have limiting/compression and crossovers built in, the speakers are designed to cover a specific area instead of offering a pleasing image, the acoustic space is usually much larger and equalization is done for impact, not sound effects. The difference is the size of the space where the music is played is part of why it sounds the way it does. A small room (even a large one by residential standards) just won't sound the same because a large space allows the sound to "breathe" in a way a small room can't. The standing waves in a small room ruin the bass but in a large space with a system that uses horn loaded drivers, line arrays and thousands of watts, the room doesn't react to the acoustical energy the same way as a smaller one using speakers that are made for great dispersion/imaging, THX approval, "depth and transparent sound".

Another thing that makes a live/rave system sound great is the ability and knowledge of the person operating the system. We have all heard bad live sound- I would bet everything I own that this is true because I have talked with sound guys who had absolutely no idea how to get good sound. These guys never use any equipment when they equalize, think their ears are so good that they always make it sound great are always messign with all of the controls, usually without much luck.

Formoz- if you really want to build a system that works for raves and gives you the sound/feel you described, go to a store that specializes in PA systems, not residential equipment. They are completely different. The connections are different, the cabling/connectivity is different, the speakers are made to focus the sound and not for wide dispersion and some is actually made to run on 220/240V. Also, pro equipment is designed and selected using different criteria- real specs, not characteristics that are often completely imaginary or caused by the marketing departments of the equipment/cable companies. You won't see $1500 power cords, audio cables that will supposedly change your life and win the war for the Allies or any of that crap. This stuff meets the specifications of the system designer. Period. It's made to be durable and to be connected/disconnected many times, not to be lovingly inserted and hugged. It generally doesn't sound the same as consumer grade equipment and there's really no reason it should- it's made for a different purpose- covering a large area vs imaging to make a 5.1 mixed CD or DVD sound like you're in the middle of the action.

Another thing you'll need to consider when trying to use this in an outdoor environment- with no walls and ceiling to reflect the sound, your system's output will be nothing like what you hear at an indoor rave. The sound may be good up front but once you move back, the volume will drop off considerably unless you use more speakers to cover the areas not handled by the main speakers (one of the reasons for line array systems). You won't have enough power with one or two amplifiers, regardless of the size of the generator. You'll also have to think about how far the bass carries outdoors and who will call to complain about the noise. If you can get a permit to do this in a park, it may be OK but if that area is near residential areas, plan on seeing the police at least once every time.
 
F

fomoz

Enthusiast
wow, what a post! I actually haven't been to an outdoor rave yet since they're very rare in my area. In my first post I was describing what I felt at an indoor afterhours. The room was not big, it was maybe 20-30m (66-99ft) long and 15-20m (49-66ft) wide.

I e-mailed the afterhour's management asking what equipment they use, but they haven't replied to me. What do you think they use there?
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
wow, what a post! I actually haven't been to an outdoor rave yet since they're very rare in my area. In my first post I was describing what I felt at an indoor afterhours. The room was not big, it was maybe 20-30m (66-99ft) long and 15-20m (49-66ft) wide.

I e-mailed the afterhour's management asking what equipment they use, but they haven't replied to me. What do you think they use there?
I would have no way to know what they used but that room size is substantial, especially if it has a high ceiling. If you place the speakers only on one end of the room, the volume at that side will be oppressive by the time you get it loud at the far end. If I can, I'll get some photos of the Tonic/Gin Blossoms outdoor show I went to last night. In a system like that, the amps are at the stage with the board and effects in the middle of the seating area. There wasn't a way to get to the area where the amps were but the speakers were hung in scaffolding- 8 mains and IIRC, 6 horn-loaded woofers. I didn't really care for the mix but the power was definitely adequate and the bass was moving my pants legs without distorting. My guess is that they were using Crown, QSC or similar amps that were in the 1200W/ch range, with an amp on each speaker, bridged. At the SPL they were hitting, this would seem pretty close if the amps were putting out close to 2000W each. That makes it 28KW if they used that number of speakers. This relates to my point about outdoor gigs needing much more power than indoors.

If you can, and I don't know where you are so I don't know what the live music scene is there, go to some live gigs and when the sound guy isn't too busy, pick his brain a little.
 

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