I think my sub is borken

ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Field Marshall
Ratings
891
#21
I quoted your post mainly because this thing about gain knob position, which totally depends on the pre-out signal level, it's not an indication of performance particularly, just a way of matching signal voltage to the subs amp sensitivity level. You can have too hot of a signal and amplify resulting clipping, that's why you need to set gain correctly (and generally leave it alone afterwards) and not consider it a volume knob.
Completely agree... only wanted to illustrate that good output can be had without stressing the amp and driver. After getting them dialed in, the only times I adjusted the gain on the sub was experimenting with Audyssey to achieve the recomended ~75dB SPL... and then fixing what Audyssey did, afterwards. ;)
When I want to boost my LF output, I use the AVR to boost the level as I need it. The controls on the back of the sub don't need to be adjusted once set!
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Overlord
Ratings
4,935 18 47
#22
Completely agree... only wanted to illustrate that good output can be had without stressing the amp and driver. After getting them dialed in, the only times I adjusted the gain on the sub was experimenting with Audyssey to achieve the recomended ~75dB SPL... and then fixing what Audyssey did, afterwards. ;)
When I want to boost my LF output, I use the AVR to boost the level as I need it. The controls on the back of the sub don't need to be adjusted once set!
More curious here, but sounds from this that after running the setup routine you then changed gain on the sub afterwards to "fix" it? Just to set desired sub level wherever the trim landed rather than simply adjust the avr trim or was the avr trim level already down as low as it would go?
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Field Marshall
Ratings
891
#23
More curious here, but sounds from this that after running the setup routine you then changed gain on the sub afterwards to "fix" it? Just to set desired sub level wherever the trim landed rather than simply adjust the avr trim or was the avr trim level already down as low as it would go?
Auddyssey had the subs pretty hot; like upright bass vibrating my chair kind of hot. it had levels and trim both turned down, but the subs just didn't blend with the speakers. They were most definitely not invisible, even though I was not experiencing localization. I hope that makes sense.
But I probably took~-6dB off the gain with Sub1 at -17dB and Sub 2 at -16dB; and I have audio/subwoofer level adjust at -7dB for both, and left Audyssey's setting in speakers/levels at -7 and -6db for the 2 subs.
I only really feel the need to adjust if I am exploring anything mid 20hz and below. everything else sounds very well balanced now.
Any suggestions? I didn't want to bottom out the AVR trim because I wanted the ability to keep experimenting downwards if I wanted or needed. (Situation dependent, of course.)
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Overlord
Ratings
4,935 18 47
#24
@ryanosaur Gain settings on a particular sub amp aren't universal so hard to know what your Outlaw settings mean. Audyssey and your avr generally have you aim at a 75dB level to match the speakers for the rest of the setup routine. Most feel that's on the weak side and raise resultant sub level trim afterwards, or deliberately set the gain on the sub amps a bit hot so as to provide as low a sub level trim setting so as to allow raising sub trim level without fear of clipping. I've yet to use Audyssey on several avrs with the sub setup routine where I wanted to lower sub level. That may speak more to your sub placement/room modes at those frequencies. Hard to know without measurements.

No problem with an -11.5 sub trim level if you want, but hard to know if setup routine sets up at -12 if you're beyond the line so to speak (assuming that -12 is the max lower trim level which I believe applies to your avr). The lower the setting of sub level trim by the routine is just indicative of a higher gain setting on the sub. If your settings of gain on the subs yield a post-routine sub trim level of -6 or -7 then I'd say you've got good gain settings on your subs for both allowing a swing of + or - 5dB with the trim level....
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Field Marshall
Ratings
891
#25
@ryanosaur Gain settings on a particular sub amp aren't universal so hard to know what your Outlaw settings mean. Audyssey and your avr generally have you aim at a 75dB level to match the speakers for the rest of the setup routine. Most feel that's on the weak side and raise resultant sub level trim afterwards, or deliberately set the gain on the sub amps a bit hot so as to provide as low a sub level trim setting so as to allow raising sub trim level without fear of clipping. I've yet to use Audyssey on several avrs with the sub setup routine where I wanted to lower sub level. That may speak more to your sub placement/room modes at those frequencies. Hard to know without measurements.

No problem with an -11.5 sub trim level if you want, but hard to know if setup routine sets up at -12 if you're beyond the line so to speak (assuming that -12 is the max lower trim level which I believe applies to your avr). The lower the setting of sub level trim by the routine is just indicative of a higher gain setting on the sub. If your settings of gain on the subs yield a post-routine sub trim level of -6 or -7 then I'd say you've got good gain settings on your subs for both allowing a swing of + or - 5dB with the trim level....
Indeed! To be fair, the x-13s have much higher output than my room necessitates. 2 in here can get kinda fun. I'll be taking the step of rew and a umic by summertime. The Audyseey info didn't show anything troubling that I could discern from the detail in the apps graphs of measured response by speaker.
Right now, everything sounds pretty nice and balanced. And as I learn more, I'll keep trying things out. KEW engaged with me about trying EQ2 out the other day which I hadn't done yet. :) Still keeping it in extended mode for now, though.

Thanks, Lovin'! always nice to hear from you you and get your input.
 
J

James_Ngo

Audioholic Intern
Ratings
7
#26
Whats the advantages of having to 2 subs? More bass, special effects, etc.?

Is it like car audio, where a single jlw6 doesn't knock as hard as running a pair.? I like deep solid.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Field Marshall
Ratings
891
#27
Multiple subs gives you more even bass response in your room. Where you might be able to dial in one sub to give good bass response to your main seat, for example, room acoustics might prevent it from being great across all seats. The idea behind multiple subs and multiple LF sources (incuding full range speakers) spread strategically throughout your listening room is that by exciting as many room modes as possible you can minimize the occurrence of standing waves and nulls.
There are a good deal of articles about why, and how to, use multiple subs, including here. :)
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Ninja
Ratings
1,752 6 1
#28
Multiple subs gives you more even bass response in your room. Where you might be able to dial in one sub to give good bass response to your main seat, for example, room acoustics might prevent it from being great across all seats. The idea behind multiple subs and multiple LF sources (incuding full range speakers) spread strategically throughout your listening room is that by exciting as many room modes as possible you can minimize the occurrence of standing waves and nulls.
There are a good deal of articles about why, and how to, use multiple subs, including here. :)
And of course headroom.
 

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