I need an a/b switch for sort of a unique setup ... maybe

[Trebdp83]

Frankly, it is a mess as you seem to have been convinced that a pricey streamer is going to somehow revolutionize the digital signal from streaming services and media servers. If you also believe in great differences in sound from lossless and hi-res signals vs lossy signals then you should have gone with a different streamer. I'm assuming we are talking about the HiFi Rose RS150B after reading about the price and ports. It doesn't support lossless audio from certain services and I really doubt sends a signal so much better than other streamers that it justifies the price. I don't think you could pick it out in a blind test if you were using Airplay, Chromecast or DTS-PlayFi to stream from a Smart device directly to the Onkyo. You may not think it a mess, but if somebody asks you a question concerning all of the components involved here and you do not answer it, you aren't helping your cause at all.

 

[itschris]

Frankly, it is a mess as you seem to have been convinced that a pricey streamer is going to somehow revolutionize the digital signal from streaming services and media servers. If you also believe in great differences in sound from lossless and hi-res signals vs lossy signals then you should have gone with a different streamer. I'm assuming we are talking about the HiFi Rose RS150B after reading about the price and ports. It doesn't support lossless audio from certain services and I really doubt sends a signal so much better than other streamers that it justifies the price. I don't think you could pick it out in a blind test if you were using Airplay, Chromecast or DTS-PlayFi to stream from a Smart device directly to the Onkyo. You may not think it a mess, but if somebody asks you a question concerning all of the components involved here and you do not answer it, you aren't helping your cause at all.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I actually posted a chart of my equipment and named every piece involved. Maybe you just don't understand. How is going direct a mess? if you think Airplay provides the same result as a high quality streamer with TIDAL then you probably shouldn't be chiming in here. Now I remember why I stopped coming here years ago.

 

[TLS Guy]

I have no idea what you're talking about. I actually posted a chart of my equipment and named every piece involved. Maybe you just don't understand. How is going direct a mess? if you think Airplay provides the same result as a high quality streamer with TIDAL then you probably shouldn't be chiming in here. Now I remember why I stopped coming here years ago.

I have to agree with Trebdb83. I have a variety of ways to stream. Streams vary in terms of lossy compression, codecs and dynamic range. However what you stream with makes no difference, they all sound the same.

The reason is simple, in that the origin and source of the stream basically sets the floor of the quality.

Analog and digital streams are different. Once a digital stream is adulterated, it can not be corrected. The screen data may show that it has, but all you have is wasted useless bits. I confirmed that in WaveLab years ago.

You can argue about the quality of DACs and their conversions if you want. For most there are small measurable differences, but to me they all sound pretty much the same.

After that it all comes down the analog chain, and that largely means speakers, speakers and speakers.

High priced streamers belong squarely in the Audiophool category. Bits are bits, like wire is wire.

So I have to say that I fear you are in need of reprogramming most likely, to get back to what matters and what does not. What grabs a stream is not something to keep contemplating your navel about.

 

[Eppie]

I don't really see this as a mess. I'm just wanting to run the new HiFi Rose direct as possible... with the ultimate goal of bypassing the Onkyo RZ70 if possible. The only way to do that is either a Preamp with HT bypass, a speaker switch (no-go) or an RCA switch... (probably a no-go)

Can I assume that the HiFi Rose has a volume control? If not and the output is fixed, then there is no other option but to use the RZ70 in bypass mode. If you can control the volume with the streamer, then the RCA switch is a relatively cheap way to try things out but keep the RCA cables as short as you can. The box appears to be metal so hopefully has decent RF shielding.

Theoretically you should not have heard a night and day difference in bypass mode. Switching wires around is not a proper test though. Audio memory is not great and something as simple as having the direct connection 2dB louder would make is seem better. You need to be able to switch back and forth with both connections level matched as louder signals are almost always perceived better.

The bigger issue I think is bass management. If this is a HT setup, then I assume that you have a subwoofer. On some AVRs, bypass/direct mode only disables signal processing, like delays (speaker distance) and EQ and dynamic settings. As some people want to be able to use bypass mode for music but still want to use their subwoofer, bypass mode does not always disable bass management. Thus it is possible that in bypass mode your speakers are still high-passed with bass below the crossover frequency going to the sub. When you connect the streamer direct to the amp, you bypass the bass management in the AVR and are getting a full range signal to the main speakers. That could indeed result in a night and day difference but not because the AVR is bad but because you are no longer comparing apples to apples and have very different setups. You'll need to test this as the feature varies by manufacturer and model but the front display sometimes shows if the subwoofer channel is still active. For those AVRs that switch off the subwoofer in bypass mode, you can switch to Stereo mode to activate it. You can also use the AVR remote to disable room correction but leave the subwoofer active.

 

[itschris]

For those saying going direct from a high end Streamer/DAC to Amp to speakers is messy... I'm not sure what you think is straightforward then. I now have a clean unadultered signal for two channel bypassing the "bypass" in my receiver altogether which @Eppie above correctly pointed out could have it's own challenges and as I stated from the outset I wanted to run as clean as possible eliminating the unnecessary introduction of weak points. At the same time I get some apparently believe that there is zero difference between Bluetooth from your phone to your Alexa Echo Dot and a high end system. And yes I know... there's no difference between $1,000 speaker cable and lamp cord. I get it. All I was looking for was some advice on solving the switching obstacle. Instead, it's a bunch of the typical criticism and questioning of my choices. Bottom line, I bought one of the highest regarded streamers in the $5K price range. I guess most of you think that's stupid and I should just AirPlay. That's fine. You're entitled to your opinions. We can close this one out now and never speak of it again. I've found a solid solution to my issue that I'm happy with and my music sounds the best it ever had.

 

[Trebdp83]

I have no idea what you're talking about. I actually posted a chart of my equipment and named every piece involved. Maybe you just don't understand. How is going direct a mess? if you think Airplay provides the same result as a high quality streamer with TIDAL then you probably shouldn't be chiming in here. Now I remember why I stopped coming here years ago.

Especially the MQA tracks, right? Don’t misunderstand me, direct is not a mess. Trying to share the speakers here between these two particular units is a mess. The overpriced streamer market is making a mess of some folks finances and sound systems. Apologies for not reading the equipment list.

There is no good reason to spend that kind of money on a streaming device. As mentioned, it is better spent on speakers and even then a few new finicky examples have come to market lately with some advising that even more money must be spent on new equipment to power them. It’s all a big mess.

The Onkyo has a built in Tidal app. It is not pretty but it works. It sounds as good as any other service used on any other streamer. While it is maxed at 24/48, you’d never know it. There is no need to chase the Magical Streaming Dragon here.

As many know, MQA and 360 Reality Audio are on their way out at Tidal. This will clean their interface up nicely as they had multiple selections of an album for each format. It will be FLAC and Dolby Atmos only in about a month’s time.

I’ve used several streaming services and streaming devices. I’ve compared the lossy, lossless, hi-res and Dolby Atmos versions of music available on various services. I’ve used built in apps, cast from smart devices and played music from HDMI connected devices. I used a MAC mini M1 to compare the lossless and hi-res streams from Amazon Music, Apple Music, Qobuz and Tidal over HDMI to my Onkyo.

I also changed the audio output avenue in the Mac from HDMI to Airplay and Chromecast. I also installed the Onkyo DTS Play-Fi app into the Mac as well and compared it to Airplay and Chromecast. DTS Play-Fi supports up to 24/192 in Critical Listening mode while Airplay just 16/44.1 and Chromcast up to 24/96. I also downloaded Audirvana and Roon and ran streaming services through them.

Because some services support Dolby Atmos tracks, I also used streaming devices that would support them including the Amazon Fire Cube, Apple TV 4K, LG C1 and Nvidia Shield TV Pro. Dolby Atmos tracks from Tidal worked using each of those devices.

So, when I say that no streaming device using different streaming services to the same receiver and speakers will make a big difference in the sound output, you can take that to the bank. Actually, high priced streamers should be returned to the seller and the money put back into one’s bank.

For those with a newer Onkyo receiver, MQA “unfolding” is not supported and the 24/48 max applies to it and FLAC using the built in Tidal app. MQA is already dead so no need to stress over it.The DTS-Play-Fi app supports Tidal’s 24/192 FLAC streams. Unfortunately, Onkyo currently does not support the “Transfer to Speaker” feature of DTS Play-Fi. I couldn’t get it to work, anyway. “Tidal Connect” is also not supported to transfer stream from device to receiver.

I'd bet in a blind test that using the Tidal app built into the Onkyo and using its own amps that one could not tell the difference between it and the HiFi Rose streaming to the Sun Fire amps using the same speakers. There are streamers that are cheap that will best both the Onkyo and the HiFi Rose regarding certain services and their lossless and hi-res selections. The HiFi Rose runs a proprietary version of Android and isn't fully featured regarding various streaming services. It just isn't going to do a better sounding job of streaming Tidal than the Onkyo. I'm reminded of those that spent large sums of money on CD "Transports" because they were supposed to do such a better job of playing CDs than any inexpensive CD player.

I'll stop here before I get into the issues regarding bass management and the Def Techs.

 

[TLS Guy]

For those saying going direct from a high end Streamer/DAC to Amp to speakers is messy... I'm not sure what you think is straightforward then. I now have a clean unadultered signal for two channel bypassing the "bypass" in my receiver altogether which @Eppie above correctly pointed out could have it's own challenges and as I stated from the outset I wanted to run as clean as possible eliminating the unnecessary introduction of weak points. At the same time I get some apparently believe that there is zero difference between Bluetooth from your phone to your Alexa Echo Dot and a high end system. And yes I know... there's no difference between $1,000 speaker cable and lamp cord. I get it. All I was looking for was some advice on solving the switching obstacle. Instead, it's a bunch of the typical criticism and questioning of my choices. Bottom line, I bought one of the highest regarded streamers in the $5K price range. I guess most of you think that's stupid and I should just AirPlay. That's fine. You're entitled to your opinions. We can close this one out now and never speak of it again. I've found a solid solution to my issue that I'm happy with and my music sounds the best it ever had.

The problem is that audio is now replete with cons, with fancy looking expensive equipment. In the UK we have a saying for this, which is "mutton dressed up as lamb".

There are two issues.

The fist is that once you digitally compress a stream it can not be uncompressed. This is not in any way the same as analog audio compression.

As I said if you try and increase the bitrate of an mp3 stream for instance, the dial may show 48K or whatever, but you have done absolutely nothing. It is the same as before, no better and no worse.

The next issue is error correction. There are errors in all digital streams. However, the error correction is so good and well thought out, that it works perfectly until there is so much data missing that it can't be corrected and the stream drops. I am sure all of us have experienced that.

In the 'audiophool' community their are long standing misunderstandings concerning error correction.

Now the odd thing is that error correction has long been superior towards the low end of the market.

The founder of Hyperion records, the late Ted Perry, said that the quality of error correction was inversely proportional to the cost of the player.

When I had cause to service one of my late friends high end McIntosh Players, I found the disc mechanism inside was the cheapest Sanyo player around!