I Know Its Been Discussed Before But: Your Take on the HD/Blu ray Situation

[Pyrrho]

I would definitely disagree with you there. Sure I prefer having a multi-channel mix on the SACDs and DVD-A, but I also have bought a few with stereo mixes only and I'm very happy with them, particularly when comparing them with their CD counterparts.
Volume has nothing to do with it, your receiver and speakers should take care of that - I don't think one person buys an SACD or DVD-A because of the recording levels.
Anyway back to the stereo recordings.
Death Cab For Cutie - Transatlanticism (SACD Stereo/Hybrid)
Peter Gabriel - So (SACD Stereo)
Peter Gabriel - Us (SACD Stereo)
I can play the Death Cab's CD portion and listen to it with Neo:6 processing on for the occasional surround vibe, but when I compare the CD direct with the SACD portion direct it is a noticeable difference.
The PG discs are even more noticeable. PLaying tracks like Mercy Street and Don't Give Up and comparing them with the CD issue of the "So" album, the difference is absolutely apparent. The clarity on the percussion of Mercy Street is ten fold over the CD.
I often listen to the two channel advanced resolution options of REM's "Green" and "Out of Time" DVD/CD dualpack issues. The stereo is 192/24 and the good thing about these dualpacks, particularly vs. DualDisc, is that they include two discs, the DVD-Audio disc and the Compact Disc.
Comparing the two channel from 44.1/16 to 192/24 is like being smacked in the face.
I don't have a very high end system either, it's good but it's not a studio top of the line system. I'm using Paradigm Monitor 11 v.4 speakers and my player is a Pioneer DV45a DVD-A/SACD player.
I would wager that I could tell which one you've put on 9/10 times. (The CD or the DVD-A)
I mean it's comparing 16 bit data at 44,100 cycles per second versus 24 bit data at 192,000 cycles per second. The maths should speak for itself, even if it is just bigger numbers.
Obviously when I really want to show off the system I'll put on the 5.1 tracks, but the DVD-A and SACD multi-channels really are better than the Dolby Digital 5.1 mixes. Case in point? Listen to John Mayer's DualDisc (DD 5.1 only) vs. the SACD DSD transfer in 5.1 - the SACD is so much easier on the ears and really feels like it's flowing out of the speakers, unlike the DD version which feels like it's being held back.

Typically, when an SACD or DVD-A is released, the whole thing is completely remastered. So the stereo SACD or DVD-A version will typically sound different from an earlier CD version. (On at least one of the hybrid SACDs I have, the stereo SACD version is remastered, and the CD layer is the same as the earlier CD release.) The same, however, applies to remastered CD releases, which sound different from earlier CD releases.

 

[dobyblue]

Typically, when an SACD or DVD-A is released, the whole thing is completely remastered. So the stereo SACD or DVD-A version will typically sound different from an earlier CD version. (On at least one of the hybrid SACDs I have, the stereo SACD version is remastered, and the CD layer is the same as the earlier CD release.) The same, however, applies to remastered CD releases, which sound different from earlier CD releases.

Yes I'm aware of that - in the examples I'm using by REM the CD that's packaged with the DVD-A is the remastered edition.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006ICF9A/sr=8-7/qid=1148661075/ref=pd_bbs_7/103-8861755-6666224?_encoding=UTF8

 

[scottyg]

Microsoft Supports The Winner !!!

Bottom Line..... Microsoft Is Supporting Hd-dvd Which Will Prevail Regardless Of Capacity !!!!

 

[ducker]

<snip>
Obviously when I really want to show off the system I'll put on the 5.1 tracks, but the DVD-A and SACD multi-channels really are better than the Dolby Digital 5.1 mixes. Case in point? Listen to John Mayer's DualDisc (DD 5.1 only) vs. the SACD DSD transfer in 5.1 - the SACD is so much easier on the ears and really feels like it's flowing out of the speakers, unlike the DD version which feels like it's being held back.

This is great info... but the reason DVD-A and SACD haven't taken off is because people don't care to have this level of precision in their audio systems.
Not to mention the lack of mass production. People don't need that level of precision in their car, or on their headphones while out and about.

Only people that enjoy sitting on the couch and simply listening to music.

That being said, it will in fact never take off like DVD's have (and CD's)

I think one of them will pull out ahead. And I'll that direction. No need to drop tons of money on the actual player. (although I'd most likely get a PS3, even if the format war was still going on)

I think the PS3 will push Sony's format over the top sadly.

Not to mention the much larger capacity on the dics, vs. the HD format DVDs.

 

[dobyblue]

Bottom Line..... Microsoft Is Supporting Hd-dvd Which Will Prevail Regardless Of Capacity !!!!

Don't bank on that, Microsoft may support one or the other but until they release software that's ONLY available on HD-DVD I don't see them influencing the popular choice.
Almost, if not entirely, all of Microsoft's software products are presented on CD and also have the ability to be downloaded.

This is great info... but the reason DVD-A and SACD haven't taken off is because people don't care to have this level of precision in their audio systems.
Not to mention the lack of mass production. People don't need that level of precision in their car, or on their headphones while out and about.
Only people that enjoy sitting on the couch and simply listening to music.
That being said, it will in fact never take off like DVD's have (and CD's)
I think one of them will pull out ahead. And I'll that direction. No need to drop tons of money on the actual player. (although I'd most likely get a PS3, even if the format war was still going on)
I think the PS3 will push Sony's format over the top sadly.
Not to mention the much larger capacity on the dics, vs. the HD format DVDs.

I don't think it's because they don't care, I think it's because they have better things to spend their money on. Upgrading to and enjoying advanced resolution audio costs a lot of money (enjoying meaning having the equipment to appreciate it) and many people just don't have it. This is reflected in the number and genre of titles - just look at how many classical titles are available on SACD, over 1,800!
At some point people were saying that DVDs would never take off.
The first DVD came out in 1996 - I didn't buy my first one until 2001.
As they continue to make the format more accessible, such as the one cable for multi-channel hi-rez audio instead of having to buy three pairs of higher end RCA cables, more and more people will start to take advantage.
PS3 will ensure the format's growth even more.
It might become as popular, but each technological advance will take longer and longer to implement itself.

 

[scottyg]

microsoft !!!!!!!!!!!

Did you read your post ???? Are you kidding me.......... "Microsoft may support one or the other but until they release software that's ONLY available on HD-DVD I don't see them influencing the popular choice" well it is not may support.... they will support hd-dvd, it has already been announced.

How could you possibly say the largest operating platform in the world will not influence the hd-dvd war ???? it sounds stupid but a lot of people who want the hd capability just went ahead and purchased the toshiba hd player, not to mention I think the blue ray players will price themselves out of the market!!!

anyone who has a brain agree about the microsoft "theory" ???

 

[scottyg]

the battle

I am not a microsoft or hd-dvd supporter..... I actually prefer the blueray but we have to realize that microsoft will predict the fate of this battle !!

 

[Jedi2016]

I am not a microsoft or hd-dvd supporter..... I actually prefer the blueray but we have to realize that microsoft will predict the fate of this battle !!

No, they won't. The "battle" will be decided by movies, not computer software. And Microsoft has no say in what format film studios release their films in. It's Hollywood that will decide this war, not the computer industry.

 

[dobyblue]

Did you read your post ???? Are you kidding me.......... "Microsoft may support one or the other but until they release software that's ONLY available on HD-DVD I don't see them influencing the popular choice" well it is not may support.... they will support hd-dvd, it has already been announced.

How could you possibly say the largest operating platform in the world will not influence the hd-dvd war ???? it sounds stupid but a lot of people who want the hd capability just went ahead and purchased the toshiba hd player, not to mention I think the blue ray players will price themselves out of the market!!!

anyone who has a brain agree about the microsoft "theory" ???

Yes, not only did I read it, but I typed it too!!
It doesn't matter which one they support, they still release their products on CD. Which one they support has bugger all to do with how successful it will be.
Look how long DVD has been out (10 years), do you see Windows XP Professional being released on DVD? Not even! It's still on CD. The new Windows Vista will be on CD too. Why? Because everyone has a CD-ROM and they want as many people as possible to have their product.
Blu Ray and HD-DVD will both be supported by Microsift operating systems. There are already HD-DVD-Rs and BR-R discs available for the upcoming HD-DVD-Rom and BR-ROM players. Both will work in your system.
What counts is the studio support - you look at which movies you like and which ones you'll want to buy and you'll note that Blu Ray now has over 50% of the major studios supporting it and it's growing. A year and a half ago HD-DVD was clearly the winner, but many of the biggest studios are supporting Blu Ray over HD-DVD.
It's a shame they don't all support both, but maybe in time they will.
Currently Blu Ray has the bigger players and with this fomat, much like with SACD and DVD-Audio, Microsoft is one of the last companies that will be able to influence anybody.
This isn't about computer architecture, this is about movies, games and audio.
Crap - Jedi I just scrolled down and read your post, clearly you also understand this format war so I'm going to quote your post and then head out for a well deserved Friday night beer.
Happy weekend everyone.

No, they won't. The "battle" will be decided by movies, not computer software. And Microsoft has no say in what format film studios release their films in. It's Hollywood that will decide this war, not the computer industry.

Touche!

anyone who has a brain agree about the microsoft "theory" ???

Dude, this was a little tacky.

 

[MACCA350]

Just a reminder: Microsoft owns XBox, so its no wonder that XBox will support HD-DVD and not Blu-ray. So yes, Microsoft support does have some effect on the format war, how much of an effect is yet to be seen.

cheers

 

[scottyg]

microsoft will only be pushing hd-dvd

Not only was I right the first time........ but you can read the article from may 30th business week... here is the link if you wish... also please visit this cent link

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/may2006/tc20060526_680075.htm?chan=technology_technology+index+page_digital+entertainment


http://news.com.com/Intel,+Microsoft+endorse+HD+DVD/2100-1041_3-5883337.html

you must be shocked to see this

"Intel and Microsoft are combining their industry power in an attempt to make the HD DVD format the victor in a battle over a standard to succeed DVD"


I tought coprate companies were banking on a certain format to win to make money ??????????? so why in the f&*^ would microsoft support both ... do yourself a favor and read b4 you get punked again !!

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

The longer this goes on, I think the longer people will hold out. We need to see where companies like Blockbuster go with the new HD discs. Will they have three sections for rentals in their stores? Will Netflix offer both at the same price?

People are still just getting into HD cable boxes. Many still don't have a HD monitor. A majority are still learning how to switch from VHS rentals to DVD's (don't laugh, our folks rent movies).

I know I'm a bit upset with the HDMI/DVI/component issues; HDCP; 1080i/720p versus the new 1080p monitors, a 2009 end date for all channels to broadcast digitally; and HDMI version 1.3. This entire industry needs to get on the same page and come out with one medium that everyone can buy into. Until then, many will remain on the fence and wait it out.

The Ipod college generation won't have the cash to invest in this HD technology. Heck, they're used to free music downloads via the internet. Does anyone think they're going to jump at $30 HD discs and $400 to $1000 HD players? Heck no, they'll wait until they can buy a HD DVD R/RW for their Dell and download pirated HD copies via the net and stream them to their flat screens.

This is all just my take, and I'm ancient compared to a lot of you guys. But money talks, and kids these days are savvy and quick with all the communication available via the net. They'll find ways around the high cost of HD - or just ignore it altogether.

Heck, they're happy with compressed MP3 audio. Who's to assume they'll buy into HD discs when Blockbuster is selling DVD's at $5 a pop?

 

[AverageJoe]

Not only was I right the first time........ but you can read the article from may 30th business week... here is the link if you wish... also please visit this cent link
http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/may2006/tc20060526_680075.htm?chan=technology_technology+index+page_digital+entertainment
http://news.com.com/Intel,+Microsoft+endorse+HD+DVD/2100-1041_3-5883337.html
you must be shocked to see this

"Intel and Microsoft are combining their industry power in an attempt to make the HD DVD format the victor in a battle over a standard to succeed DVD"

I tought coprate companies were banking on a certain format to win to make money ??????????? so why in the f&*^ would microsoft support both ... do yourself a favor and read b4 you get punked again !!

I didn't see where anyone disagreed with you that MS supported the HD DVD format. And regarding being "...right the first time...", it remains to be seen whether their support will actually influence the outcome of the "war".

If Ford and Toyota came out in favor of HD DVD, I'd say about the same thing - So what?

I ordered the Toshiba unit not too long ago. When I found 30 or 35 titles I wanted in that format (released or soon to be released), compared the price to the Sony, and looked at a few reviews, I figured it was worth it. It never even crossed my mind to check with Microsoft. Who cares what they support?

Even if Blu-Ray "wins", the Toshiba won't just stop working. I'll still enjoy the 30 or 35 movies in HD.

 

[mustang_steve]

My take on both technologies: They both are very capable of doing everythine we want them to, how we want them to. I would love to add one of these formats to my HT...once I get the cash for a better TV, so I can see the advantages (I'm still running a standard CRT Television).

MS adopting HD-DVD WILL make a difference. Thing is, once HD-DVD-R drives start coming out, they will more than likely update "windows movie maker" (an applet that helps you make movies from your camcorders). That right there will place HD-DVD at a serious advantage point.

As for PC software on CDs...I think that will be going away soon. Problem with OS discs on DVD is one thing.....no boot standard. There is a boot standard for CD-ROM, which allows for someone to put bootable code on it, which will work with any PC that has a BIOS that allows for CD booting, as well as a compatible drive. Now games come in a DVD version as well...such as Oblivion, Everquest2, and many others. i suspect there are some softwares as well. There is also one last problem with DVDs and software....there has been no real effort for copy-protections that can work right on DVDs....like Oblivion just has a very crude CD check in place....circa 1994 style CD checking.

My final take on the HD/Blu battle is this though.....DRM. I don't see where it is giving ME any value-add, but I do see where it can cause me hassle. I say the first one to say it will NEVER have DRM enabled on it, will win me over.

I also think the DRM issue is applicable to anyone that would buy it in the first place, since most of us are enthusiasts compared to the normal consumer...so we do try to keep up on this stuff....plus we are also the ones to spend the big bucks on early technologies.

Pretty much summary time:

Consoles: Battle honestly does not matter here, since Consoles have always been proprietary, and the concept of a game console, which will be replaced when the nextgen comes out, being used as a media hub is laughable at best.

Computers: Battle is slightly more relevant here, especially since apple went Intel...so now for the first time in history, all 3 major computer OSs run on similar hardware platforms. This means whoever wins the PC side of it will more than likely win the HT side of it.

HT: This is going to be another SACD/DVD-A....and we all know how well that battle got sorted out

Really, I do think the computer side will be the determining factor.....we never got to see how DVD-A/SACD would do in that realm thanks to over-zealous DRM making it nearly impossible to use those formats in a practical manner on the computer....so we will see how it goes this time.

 

[dobyblue]

Not only was I right the first time........ but you can read the article from may 30th business week... here is the link if you wish... also please visit this cent link

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/may2006/tc20060526_680075.htm?chan=technology_technology+index+page_digital+entertainment


http://news.com.com/Intel,+Microsoft+endorse+HD+DVD/2100-1041_3-5883337.html

you must be shocked to see this

"Intel and Microsoft are combining their industry power in an attempt to make the HD DVD format the victor in a battle over a standard to succeed DVD"


I tought coprate companies were banking on a certain format to win to make money ??????????? so why in the f&*^ would microsoft support both ... do yourself a favor and read b4 you get punked again !!

1) No I'm not shocked to read an article from September of last year.
2) No-one's arguing whether or not Microsoft supports one or the other
What's all this talk about being pucked? This isn't imdb.com you know! Settle down.

Thing is, once HD-DVD-R drives start coming out, they will more than likely update "windows movie maker" (an applet that helps you make movies from your camcorders). That right there will place HD-DVD at a serious advantage point.

One that will be negated by Sony's (and others) HD direct to BR+R HD-Camcorders.

 

[scottyg]

punked was meant to put emphisis on the fact that he was losing the argument.......... sorry about that !!