I Know Its Been Discussed Before But: Your Take on the HD/Blu ray Situation

[DTS Fanatic]

Boy, has this got me in a bind....I dont know WHAT I'm going to do....I have THOUSANDS invested in the standard DVD format -- hardware and software -- to consider replacing the whole thing with these new titles; first of all, Im not that impressed with the packaging of the HD DVD discs...have you seen these things in the flesh yet? I looked at the Training Day HD DVD at Best Buy (which would be a double dip for me should I buy into the format), and it felt like I was holding....I dont know....it was so thin and insignificant as compared to a DVD disc and keepcase...I didnt like it....on the other hand, I hate those Warner Brothers snapper cases, but I dont know...these special edition DVDs that come out with the slipcases over them and such seem much more "collectible" and enjoyable to own than these hi res discs. I know Blu ray isnt here yet, but the titles for HD DVD havent been stupendous yet....good ones, no doubt....GoodFellas, Training Day, Apollo 13, Serenity....but who knows if this is going to catch on with the public?

And what's the deal with the sound on these hi res discs....Dolby Digital Plus and DTS HD lossless are supposed to be the new surround formats to surpass DD and DTS, but do we need new receivers to decode these, or are they passed via analog outs from the Toshiba HD players to our current receivers? I have heard about many mastering/volume problems in the first round of titles where the audio was way too low...this is all making me skeptical about buying into HD and Blu ray...are we going to have to buy TWO versions of the same title each time they come out, Blu ray and HD DVD, until the "war" is over? Is it just worth holding onto our current collections, or are many of you buying into the format already? Are you going to sell your entire DVD collection, if the titles become available, for HD versions? I dont think thats financially possible for me personally. What's your take?

 

[j_garcia]

None of the titles are must haves to me and the fact that the selection of titles will be limited for the near future will probably keep me out of both of them for the time being. I adopted DVD right away because it was clearly better than VHS in terms of video and sound, however the lack of titles and places to rent early on was a small inconvenience. No big deal now, but I think I'll wait until at least the 2nd generation with these guys to see how things fall. Also really don't want to upgrade until there are receivers/processors that can handle the new sound formats.

 

[outsider]

I look at how long it took for DVD to catch on initially, and I can't help but think that HD-DVD or Blu-ray will take far longer. Overall, I don't see the masses desiring it, or understanding how and why it's an improvement over the current DVD format. And, has been mentioned plenty of times before, nobody, except the electronics manufacturers, want the format war. To be honest, I see HD-DVD and Blu-ray experiencing a slow, expensive death.

 

[dobyblue]

I'll be very interested in Blu Ray - they already have titles planned that I'll buy for sure like The fifth Element and The Matrix amongst others and the packaging looks very cool.
http://www.blu-ray.com/images/ces2006/bda_16.jpg
I'll be buying the Playstation 3 to get my Blu Ray player.
I know there were quite a few issues with the PS2's DVD player, but Blu Ray has been developed by Sony so I don't see similiar issues happening with this player. PS3 will also support SACD discs which is great news as well as play it's games in 1080p, which X-Box 360 currently doesn't offer.
Blu Ray should also support 192/24 audio into 7.1 channels.
I think it would be wise though to sit back for a little while with a designated player and see where everything goes. I believe prices will come down quite quickly and that always attracts business. More and more people now have a home theatre set-up, even if it's very low end, and once people start seeing the pictures of these movies through Blu Ray players at their local Best Buys or whatever, the format should be around to stay.
Hopefully it will open up the world of high end audio to all the gamers who many of probably love compressed music on their ipods. Maybe Hi-Rez music is about to get the push it's long since needed.
I don't see any need to replace too many titles in your collection though. I mean I look at my collection and can see lots of title I won't replace like Ferris Bueller, Plains/Trains/Auto, LA Story, The Castle, etc., but then I can also see the titles that I will replace like Star Wars, Matrix, X-Men, etc.

 

[Jedi2016]

1) You don't have to replace your entire collection. You can keep them all if you like.. the new players can read DVDs just fine. Just buy the ones you want in high-def. Me, I'll only be buying the "big" visual movies like LOTR and Star Wars again.. most of my collection will remain DVD. Everything I buy new will be HD, but I'll only be buying a few "old" titles again.

2) As for the sound.. yes, you need a receiver capable of decoding them. My current receiver works just fine, so I have no intentions of replacing it anytime soon. I'll probably just stick with one of the "lesser" audio codecs that my box can read.

3) Buying movies twice... don't. Just wait unti the format war is decided, unless you're confident in one format over the other, then just stick to that. No sense buying two copies of the same film in HD.

 

[MAX661]

1) You don't have to replace your entire collection. You can keep them all if you like.. the new players can read DVDs just fine. Just buy the ones you want in high-def. Me, I'll only be buying the "big" visual movies like LOTR and Star Wars again.. most of my collection will remain DVD. Everything I buy new will be HD, but I'll only be buying a few "old" titles again.

2) As for the sound.. yes, you need a receiver capable of decoding them. My current receiver works just fine, so I have no intentions of replacing it anytime soon. I'll probably just stick with one of the "lesser" audio codecs that my box can read.

3) Buying movies twice... don't. Just wait unti the format war is decided, unless you're confident in one format over the other, then just stick to that. No sense buying two copies of the same film in HD.

1. I agree with, except if you want a good demo disk pick up Training Day the PQ and SQ are amazing.

2. No you do not need a new receiver, you can use the analog outs and let the player decode the new formats.

 

[dobyblue]

For the don't buy movies twice thing - a lot of people already do.

I'm all for being against music and movie piracy, but if a studio brings out a better version of a movie that I've already bought, well excuse my French but **** 'em, I'm renting the movie from Blockbuster and burning it.
Cases in example;
Trainspotting - now available with a DTS track.
Backbeat - now available with a 5.1 instead of a 2.0 track
Silence of the Lambs - possible worst DVD release ever with "Jump to a scene" and "Begin Movie" options only, now available with all the goodies
There are exceptions to the rule like Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas. When Criterion releases something then I expect it to be much better than the studio's release, but when the SAME studio releases a better product I think they're just gouging the population and they shouldn't be rewarded.

Personally I think Blu Ray and HD-DVD will co-exist (sadly) just like DVD-Audio and SACD currently do for audio, but I hope the studios start releasing the right versions of the movies the first time around.

 

[Pyrrho]

Right now, different studios have agreed to release on different formats, so if you want to be able to watch all movies in HD, you need both. And the owners of the formats are saying (the last I heard, anyway) that they will not licence a universal player to play both (which makes it unlike SACD and DVD-A, as "universal" players that play both are common, and therefore make it easier for the two formats to coexist). Well, I don't think the current situation can last. I think one of the following will happen:

1. One format will catch on fairly well, then all studios will release films in that format, as they all want to sell movies.
   
2. The owners of the formats will relent and licence universal players that can play both. In my opinion, this is the ONLY way both formats are going to be able to survive.

Most people are not going to be willing to buy two players so they can watch all movies. It just isn't going to happen. Also, I have not looked at the latest numbers, but there are still a lot of people who do not own HDTVs, and they obviously will not see any benefit to the new formats.

If I were to guess about what will happen, I would say 1 above. The format to win will be the one with the most films that are popular (regardless of which format is better in itself). If I were to guess right now, I would guess that Blu-Ray is going to win. But so many things can happen, I would not want to bet on it.

If 2 happens, then all of the current HD players will immediately become obsolete.

Unless you have a grand or two you don't need, I would advise waiting until there seems to be a clear winner. Not only would picking a losing format be costly, even picking a winner is costly, as prices for both hardware and software will likely drop soon. And, of course, there will likely be remastered, deluxe versions that come out later to replace the early releases of HD discs; they will probably get better at making them over time, just like they did with DVDs. Of course, if both formats flounder for a while, a new, better format may come out to replace them both.

 

[DTS Fanatic]

Wow,

Thanks guys, for all the replies....seems like everyone has a different take on this; for folks like me, and I know that there are countless others out there coexisting with my status, that have nearly bottomless cash invested in the current DVD format, does it make sense to replace an entire catalog of titles just because theyre in high def, if every title even becomes available on high def? Is that justifiable? And with regard to the audio on these discs, is it true that the analog RCAs just get connected to the decks like the Toshibas and let the decks themselves decode the Dolby Digital Plus and DTS HD lossless formats -- right through our existing receivers? Will new receivers arrive that DIGITALLY decode these new formats....and are these new formats really better-sounding, richer and more dyamic than our current Dolby Digital and DTS codecs?

 

[dobyblue]

Once the studios are recording dialogue and sound effects in 192/24 then you'll definitely notice a GIGANTIC improvement over the current Dolby and DTS audio tracks. To go from lossy 5 and 6.1 to lossless 192/24 7.1 - you can only imagine how good it will sound.

As for the cables the new formats will support lossless 7.1 over one HDMI cable, so you'll only need to upgrade your receiver if it doesn't support HDMI.

 

[Methost]

1. I agree with, except if you want a good demo disk pick up Training Day the PQ and SQ are amazing.

2. No you do not need a new receiver, you can use the analog outs and let the player decode the new formats.

If you choose the analog outs (I assume there is 8 of them?) how is the bass management handled? Are there the same issues as there are with a SCAD player? Will a need a seperate component to manage the LF?

 

[mpompey]

I am totally "second-ing" J here. I'm intrigued by the new sound formats, but I'll wait until there is a second gen dual format player (1080p). As far as the receiver. I'll wait until I upgrade my player and projector first.

For me, right now. My theatre is dialed in just right. I'm not going to let a manufactured format war rake me over the coals.

 

[mpompey]

I don't think its necessary to replace all of your DVD titles with HD even if they are available. For me the ones I'll replace will be the big screen spectacles like the LOTR, StarWars, Fifth Element Films. But the current 480p resolution stills great at 96".

 

[DTS Fanatic]

I don't think its necessary to replace all of your DVD titles with HD even if they are available. For me the ones I'll replace will be the big screen spectacles like the LOTR, StarWars, Fifth Element Films. But the current 480p resolution stills great at 96".

Thanks for your heartfelt thoughts, Mpompey; you have given me a clearer vision of what I want to do and thought the standard DVD fan was gone!!

Is the audio, as people have been saying, THAT much better with Dolby Digital Plus and DTS Lossless?

 

[mpompey]

I know I'm going to start a flame war with this comment

In my opinion going from 96Khz to 192KHz, is not going to be that dramtic a difference in audible frequencies to most people watching movies. As far as DVD-Audio, that may be another story. But for me, I primarily watch movies, (about 95% of the time). I don't think its going to be as dramatic a change as was going from Dolby Pro logic to Dolby digital.

Sure you may not have the compression issues, but much of that can be solved by how the studio lays out the audio.

Okay guys, you can pile on now.

 

[DTS Fanatic]

I dont think that reply warrants flaming at all....I think you were honest with your thoughts and I was hoping to hear from someone that the audio schemes on the new discs wont drop us off our chairs as compared to standard Dolby Digital and DTS!

I havent had a chance to demo these new discs, audio wise, in any outlet near me yet.

 

[DTS Fanatic]

"For me, right now. My theatre is dialed in just right. I'm not going to let a manufactured format war rake me over the coals."

I gotta tell you, buddy, this is EXACTLY how I feel, too! Finally all the tweaking and overtly time consuming adjustments to the current system to get it, as you perfectly say, "dialed in just right" where I have it now, stops me from getting wrapped up in this format war....the calibrations, settings, etc....everything seems just dialed in, yes, and the thought of having to reachieve this perhaps years later with a new format is daunting.

 

[Pyrrho]

I don't think its necessary to replace all of your DVD titles with HD even if they are available. For me the ones I'll replace will be the big screen spectacles like the LOTR, StarWars, Fifth Element Films. But the current 480p resolution stills great at 96".

Another thing to remember is the source for each DVD. If one has DVDs of things made for TV where the original is 480i, the only reason to buy a HD copy of it would be if they develop significantly better upconversion in professional use that cannot be done in reasonably priced consumer electronics. Of course, films on 35 mm film can have higher resolution than HDTV (it depends on the film grain and other factors, though most have more than HDTV resolution), so we can expect to have improvements when some new format with higher resolution than HDTV comes out in the future. So, after buying Star Wars on DVD, then on some HD disc, you can expect later on to buy it on something with higher resolution and still get an improvement.

 

[Pyrrho]

I know I'm going to start a flame war with this comment

In my opinion going from 96Khz to 192KHz, is not going to be that dramtic a difference in audible frequencies to most people watching movies. As far as DVD-Audio, that may be another story. But for me, I primarily watch movies, (about 95% of the time). I don't think its going to be as dramatic a change as was going from Dolby Pro logic to Dolby digital.

Sure you may not have the compression issues, but much of that can be solved by how the studio lays out the audio.

Okay guys, you can pile on now.

Since you have not gotten flamed yet, let me have a go at it. I think the only reason to go from CD to DVD-A or SACD is for the multichannel capability. Unless, of course, one wants recordings of dog whistles that are not audible for humans.

And before someone points out the fact that they have a higher capability for a wide dynamic range, I don't think that there are very many, if any, CDs that have been made that actually use the entire dynamic capability of them. And given the noise levels in a quiet room, and just how loud it would be going 96 dB above that, no one who wants to avoid damaging their hearing will ever want anything any louder than the maximum capability of a CD.

But back to Dolby Digital and DTS. Since both are discrete multichannel formats, with an adequate frequency response and dynamic range, the advantage one will get over these is no compression of the audio, which may or may not be audible (probably depending on the particular sounds and how well it was mastered), and possibly more discrete channels (who knows? maybe in a few years we will all be wanting 20.3 sound).

People are impressed with bigger numbers, so there will be a market for "better" sound. But regardless of whether your equipment can reproduce 40 kHz or not, you will never hear it.

 

[dobyblue]

Since you have not gotten flamed yet, let me have a go at it. I think the only reason to go from CD to DVD-A or SACD is for the multichannel capability. Unless, of course, one wants recordings of dog whistles that are not audible for humans.

And before someone points out the fact that they have a higher capability for a wide dynamic range, I don't think that there are very many, if any, CDs that have been made that actually use the entire dynamic capability of them. And given the noise levels in a quiet room, and just how loud it would be going 96 dB above that, no one who wants to avoid damaging their hearing will ever want anything any louder than the maximum capability of a CD.

But back to Dolby Digital and DTS. Since both are discrete multichannel formats, with an adequate frequency response and dynamic range, the advantage one will get over these is no compression of the audio, which may or may not be audible (probably depending on the particular sounds and how well it was mastered), and possibly more discrete channels (who knows? maybe in a few years we will all be wanting 20.3 sound).

People are impressed with bigger numbers, so there will be a market for "better" sound. But regardless of whether your equipment can reproduce 40 kHz or not, you will never hear it.

I would definitely disagree with you there. Sure I prefer having a multi-channel mix on the SACDs and DVD-A, but I also have bought a few with stereo mixes only and I'm very happy with them, particularly when comparing them with their CD counterparts.
Volume has nothing to do with it, your receiver and speakers should take care of that - I don't think one person buys an SACD or DVD-A because of the recording levels.
Anyway back to the stereo recordings.
Death Cab For Cutie - Transatlanticism (SACD Stereo/Hybrid)
Peter Gabriel - So (SACD Stereo)
Peter Gabriel - Us (SACD Stereo)
I can play the Death Cab's CD portion and listen to it with Neo:6 processing on for the occasional surround vibe, but when I compare the CD direct with the SACD portion direct it is a noticeable difference.
The PG discs are even more noticeable. PLaying tracks like Mercy Street and Don't Give Up and comparing them with the CD issue of the "So" album, the difference is absolutely apparent. The clarity on the percussion of Mercy Street is ten fold over the CD.
I often listen to the two channel advanced resolution options of REM's "Green" and "Out of Time" DVD/CD dualpack issues. The stereo is 192/24 and the good thing about these dualpacks, particularly vs. DualDisc, is that they include two discs, the DVD-Audio disc and the Compact Disc.
Comparing the two channel from 44.1/16 to 192/24 is like being smacked in the face.
I don't have a very high end system either, it's good but it's not a studio top of the line system. I'm using Paradigm Monitor 11 v.4 speakers and my player is a Pioneer DV45a DVD-A/SACD player.
I would wager that I could tell which one you've put on 9/10 times. (The CD or the DVD-A)
I mean it's comparing 16 bit data at 44,100 cycles per second versus 24 bit data at 192,000 cycles per second. The maths should speak for itself, even if it is just bigger numbers.
Obviously when I really want to show off the system I'll put on the 5.1 tracks, but the DVD-A and SACD multi-channels really are better than the Dolby Digital 5.1 mixes. Case in point? Listen to John Mayer's DualDisc (DD 5.1 only) vs. the SACD DSD transfer in 5.1 - the SACD is so much easier on the ears and really feels like it's flowing out of the speakers, unlike the DD version which feels like it's being held back.