I get to buy a whole new system (long and rambling, sorry)

[Takeereasy]

Hi guys, I was wondering if I could get some insight and opinions on the following:

The back story- girlfriend's dad is willing to let me pick out his home theater system for him. He's a great guy and I don't want to let him down. He was actually on his way to buy some Bose speakers because of how good he thought they sounded. I asked him to come with me to the local hi fi shop where I have been making purchases to replace my own system piece by piece. He was floored, he couldn't believe the difference and asked me if I would help him pick out a whole home theater system. I started drooling thinking about the possibilities I could explore with someone else footing the bills, plus I would now have a great excuse for some more auditioning of my own.-

He has already decided that he would like a sharp aquos 37" LCD that costs $6000.00 CAD so I can't really have any input there.

Here is what we have decided on:

PSB image 2b's for front and rear @ $239.00 US a Pair. (he will not go floor standing)

PSB image 8c for the center @ $178 $US

SVS PB10-ISD for the sub @ $609.00 CAD including delivery

Bluejeans 12 AWG speakerwire 100 FT for $39 US

Bluejeans banana plugs to terminate both ends 10 pr for $35 US

Bluejeans DVI cable $42 US

Denon 1910 DVD player $229 US.

He has all the other cabling that he needs, and will upgrade it later if need be.



- The delima is the receiver. I have it narrowed down to 3 choices that fit into the budget,I've been told that I Can't spend more than $550 Cad on the receiver.

Receiver 1 Harman Kardon avr 235 @ $550 Cad delivered

Receiver 2 Onkyo 602b @ $540 Cad delivered

Receiver 3 Yamaha 5760b @ $550 Cad delivered

I would be saving a minimum of $200 per receiver by buying them online this way, and all are coming from an authorized dealer. The Harman retails for $800 here at Future Shop which puts it over $1000.00 after our crazy 15% tax is implemented.

The wattage seems low, but all of the speakers are pretty efficient, and they only have to fill a small/medium room.

Please give your opinions as t which receiver will do the best job, and please tell me if I'm out to lunch on any of them. They all did very well in reviews, but a big part of those reviews is subjective thanks guys, I look forward to your help.

 

[Fb111794]

I would STRONGLY recommend a DENON AVR-2105. That's this years model, 90 wpc x 7 and it should be right in your budget.

My second choice would be the Harmon/Kardon unit.

 

[dloweman]

I agree with FB, but he must not be from canada, because it is over 950 after taxes in canada

 

[Takeereasy]

I agree with you both.

I would love to be able to grab The Denon, but its cost prohibits me. Denon and Marantz were the first two products I looked at, and what I can afford from both I don't want. I don't know what it is but here in Canada they stick it to us on electronics. On top of whatever nutty mark-up we get hit with there is also 15% tax to consider here in Ontario, so that is also a big concern.
I am purchasing everything online from authorized e-tailers to save money while still getting a valid warranty.

What I found truly ridiculous is the cost of PSB speakers here in relation to the cost online in the States. I don't mean here as in all of Canada, I mean here in Oshawa Ontario, about a 20 min drive from PSB's headquarters. I am ordering the PSB Image Bs from the States because it is cheaper to buy them and pay $60 a pair to get them shipped here then it is to buy them from a local store. By the way the exact same thing is true of NAD, they are headquartered in Pickering Ontario, same as PSB and it still costs more to buy one here than in the US. Anyway, I'm done with the rant. (I also know that the products are assembled overseas, and about shipping, and tarriffs etc...)

The point is that the cheapest I can get the Denon is about $750.00, and to be honest The 1705, which is the only Denon in my price range really doesn't do it for me. I have heard all of the receivers I mentioned earlier, just not in an uncontrolled enviroment, so I really am looking for subjective opinion and input.

Thanks for the advice though I do appreciate it. Also if you guys have any other suggestions, or experiences with the receivers I mentioned, or any others that can be had for around $400 US online, please let me know.

Thanks again, this forum rocks.


P.S. I maybe should have added earlier that my Girlfriend's dad will be using this for about 80% movies, 20% music, no gaming going on.

 

[Shinerman]

I am a Yamaha fan so I would reccomend the Yamaha but to be honest, any of the receivers you mentioed will work fine. The only thing I would suggest is that you make sure which ever receiver you do choose has sufficient "correct" hookups for the other components in the system. For example, if you need 3 digital cables , make sure the receiver has the inputs for them.

Shinerman

 

[Takeereasy]

Thanks Shinerman, it's nice to hear that I'm not totally out to lunch. I think all of these receivers have the minimum number of inputs and outputs I need. What would be nice is DVI switching, but I don't even want to hazard a guess as to what that would cost.

One reason I'm being so fussy about receiver choice is that the system I am picking out for someone else is very similar to the one I am purchasing for myself. I already have switched to The PSB brand for fronts and Center, my next major purchase is going to be a sub, but soon after I will be upgrading my receiver.

In your opinion what is it that sets the Yamaha above the others. Is this receiver better for movies or music.

Thanks again.

 

[Shinerman]

In your opinion what is it that sets the Yamaha above the others. Is this receiver better for movies or music.

Thanks again.

I have had several Yamaha products myself as well as a couple of buddies that are die-hard Yammy fans. Myself and my friends have yet to have a single problem when any of the Yamaha products. Sure other's will have different experiences with Yamaha or any brand for that matter. I can just tell you my experience.

As far as differences in sound, I don't think there would be much of a difference, if at all. All these receivers should be able to easily drive PSB speakers and any other 8 ohm speaker.

Advice from anyone saying that one receiver sounds better or worse than another should be taken with a large grain of salt. Things like speaker placement, room acoutics and different speakers models have a huge effect on sound. This is where large improvements can be made. Top end speakers with a $6k A/V receiver or seperates will sound like crap in a bad acoustic environment. On the other hand, when properly placed in a acoustically sound room, lessers speakers and a $500 receiver can sound better than a $10k system in poor acoustic environment.

Anyway, just rambling.

Shinerman

 

[Takeereasy]

I don't think you're rambling at all.

I think you make some good points, and actually you brought up a concern of mine. All the PSBs are rated for 6 ohms. Do you think that that would be a prob for any of these? I think that this would make them run hotter, ( the receivers that is) wouldn't it?

Anyway thanks for the help so far.

 

[Shinerman]

I think you make some good points, and actually you brought up a concern of mine. All the PSBs are rated for 6 ohms. Do you think that that would be a prob for any of these? I think that this would make them run hotter, ( the receivers that is) wouldn't it?

Anyway thanks for the help so far.

I would not worry about the 6 ohm load. The speakers at pretty sensitive at 91 db so driving them should not be a problem at all. PSB are very popular speakers and I have never seen anyone complain that they are hard to drive. In a standard 5.1/6.1/7.1 configuration they will be fine.

I actually listened to some a PSB bookshelves a couple of years ago on what I think was a Pioneer receiver that would have probably been in the lower half of the product range. The speakers were very impressive. I would have given them a second listen but the store went belly up. Go figure.

Shinerman

 

[farscaper]

I would also add these models to your receiver list..
Pioneer 1014tx (about $500-600 cdn)
Marantz 5500 (from $700-800 cdn).
Denon 1905 ($700 cdn @ audiotronic)

On the speaker side, I did the same thing and bought my PSB 8C from the US. It went from being unaffordable to in my living room for about $180cdn less (with freight). I love it.

If your inclined, you might want to give Paradigm & Axiom a hear. Some good prices in Canada especially Axiom.

Cheers!

 

[Takeereasy]

Thanks Guys

I appreciate the time you guys took to answer me.

I guess I just needed some people more knowledgeable, and with more experience in these matters than myself, to reassure me that I'm not wasting someone else's money.

Farscaper, I have looked all over for the Pioneer you are talking about. Originally it was the one I was sure I wanted to pick out. It retails in my area here at best buy for $699.00 + tax, or $803.85 incl. tax. It was on sale boxing day for $499 but I couldn't get my girlfriend's dad to commit to the purchase. It is no trouble to find it for $499 US incl tax online from an authorized dealer or $350 US incl tax from an unauthorized dealer.
All of the reviews I can find online for this thing are glowing, and it is THX certified, which is nice, but not 100% necessary.

As for the Denon and Marantz, they are very tempting, and if it were myself doing the paying, I'm sure some numbers could be reworked. As it sits though I can't see myself convincing the guy with the cheque book to add any more.


The local dealer that I am buying my own system from sells both PSB and Paradigm (along with several others) and I have to admit I loved the Paradigms every bit as much as as the PSBs when I gave them a listen, except in cost. The dealer was moving out several PSB Image line products at a discount because the models have been discontinued. He played the discontinued model in an A/B test for me next to it's replacement, and I couldn't tell the dif. so I went with the PSB Image 2bs for $400 tax incl. I got the 8C as an early Christmas gift from the girlfriend about a week later. To be honest I hated it for a couple of weeks. I thought it was a big mistake, and that it couldn't match up to the bookshelfs. Then about a week or so ago something started to change. I guess this is the break in everyone is talking about, man what a difference. I plan on getting some 5Ts or their replacements as fronts eventually, but the bookshelves do a fantastic job for now.

On a side note, am I the only one who really enjoys shopping around for all this stuff. I have devoted several hours to a project that has not alot to do with me, but I enjoy finding out about the products, and how they work, and what does whot. I find myself thouroughly engrossed by anything to do with these topics. I read as many posts on this site as I can, I always hope to be able to offer some help, but so far that has been limited to deals I have found while looking for myself and others. I think I may have a new bug.



Anyways, thanks again guys, I can't say it enough, I do appreciate the input, it eases the worry about spending someone elses money.

 

[armaraas]

Hello, I thought I would chime in since I got the HK 235 a little over a week ago. I also demoed an HK 630, HK DPR 1001, and a Yamaha 5790 in the last month. I do not have a lot experience and I am not very technical, but I will try to give you some useful insight. To start off with, I am currently running 5.1, Cambridge Tower IIs for mains, centerstage, and 5.1 surrounds. The mains are 6 ohm nominal, not sure what minimum is. I also have been unable to find their sensitivity rating. The manual doesn't even list the specs. This is currently my main listening/viewing area for now. That will change in the near future, but I plan on leaving the 235 at its current location and getting a new receiver for the new location, so my requirements for the 235 are pretty low.

Anyway, setup for the 235 was pretty easy, the OSD is pretty generic but easy enough to get through. I did have a remote from a previous model that had an SPL meter built in, so I used that to adjust the speakers. The 235 does have EZSet, which seemed to work ok, but it just levels out the speakers so I did it manually anyway. Assigning inputs is also pretty easy thru the OSD. The only problem I may have, which I haven't been able to verify, is that when watching Master and Commander with DTS, the speaker levels were not set. I swear I had set them previously for DTS, but maybe not. Since I set them (again?) I have not had them default yet (again?). When you set up the system, it can use the same settings for all sound formats when it comes to speaker size, cross over, etc. However, you will need to adjust the speaker level for each sound format you use on each input, a bit tedious but not too bad.

I will leave the sound of the receiver up to you to decide on and assume you are able to demo the receivers you are considering so you know what you/he like. For performance with cds and stereo, it was putting out around 80db in the lower -20s. For me that was more than adequate and louder than I would need it even if I wanted to crank it or was in different part of the house (I am assuming the SPL meter in the remote was accurate, which it may or may not be, but it wouldn't read over 80db). The room it is in is 15'x'16'x9', with the back wall nonexistant and open into the dining room and kitchen. I did push the receiver some (only once) to about -10db, which to me was unbearable (I was standing 20-25' feet away from the speakers), I had it there for about 30 seconds and then started turning it down. The receiver then when into "Protect" mode and shutdown. I was able to power it back on immediately and start using it again, but I am not sure what caused that. If it was my speakers, the enclosed cabinet making the receiver too warm (backside is open), or something else. If anyone has any thoughts on it let me know, I plan on trying it again tonight with the door open for more air circulation. But since it shutdown on volumes that I would never listen to I am currently not concerned about it, though I am curious why it did it. The receiver runs warm to the touch, but never got as hot as my old Pioneer or the Yamaha I tried. It does have a fan inside according to the manual that will kick in as it heats up. I haven't heard it, so I am not sure if it is quiet or just hasn't turned on yet.

With movies the receiver performed quiet well, M and C is a great movie to watch for the soundtrack, and good movie in general. For some of the battle scenes I kept the volume around -15, louder than I would normally listen to it at but I wanted to push it a bit and it handled that fine, no Protect modes kicking in. The receiver works fine with detecting the signal. It does 7.1, and I know some people have complained about older HKs defaulting out of 7.1 when switching channels or sources, but since I don't have that many speakers I was not able to test it. It has a couple of DSP settings which I do not bother with. It also has bass and treble adjustments on the front of the receiver if you need them.

I would have liked to have tried a Pioneer 1014, but the HK was a good $50+ cheaper and I was driven by price. I guess to sum up my experience with the 235 so far:

Pros
Good power for the price range
Sturdy construction on interior components
Easy to set up
Plenty of connections (4 digital on back, 2 on front if needed, 2 component)
All of the latest surround formats

Cons
Lacks Auto EQ
Remote leaves some to be desired (now using a universal learning instead)
Lacks some features you may find in other Brands at this price

All in all, if you like HK's sound and are looking for a receiver on a budget and do not require all the bells and whistles that may go unused (DSP's, component upconversion, etc) then the 235 is a great receiver.

 

[armaraas]

I forgot to mention but it may be assumed, if you have any specific questions about the 235 let me know and I'll get back to you.
One annoying thing I've noticed is that you can dim the front display, but every time you power off the receiver it comes back on as Full again instead of dimmed as it was when turned off.

 

[Takeereasy]

Thanks a bunch armaraas. That is a very usefull review you gave. To be honest I really like the way the Harmon looks the best. Like I said in an earlier post it retails for about $800 dollars up here which after taxes is very near $1k, but I can get it form either J&R, B & H photo or Ecost (I think it's one or the other) for $550 delivered. The receiver going into protect mode is a small concern to me. Please let me know if the incident repeats itself,

Also I have a question that I know is subjective, but, at the volumes you describe how good does everything sound. Does it make you glad that you bought this receiver, and would you reccomend it to a friend? One more thing, does the 235 provide a way of switching to 6 ohms as opposed to what I assume would be the factory setting of 8 ohms? Thanks, and sorry to be such a bother.

I am going to bring the specs I have as well as final costs to the gf's dad's house on Sat. We are then going to go out so that he can see the receivers and dvd player in action. We can audition the Onkyo, HK, and Yamaha all in one shop with similar speakers, although they don't cary PSB they do carry Paradigm and several other brands.

I hope he makes his decision based solely on his own opinions that he forms at this time. If he asks my opinion I'd have to go with the Harmon at this point if it were for myself, but the Yamaha for him. I am concerned about the power output of the Harmon, but it has the outs I could use with a seperate amp. The Yamaha just has more options, and a much friendler warranty. I reserve the right to pass final judgement untill I see them all going at once.

 

[armaraas]

Hello again, just a quick follow up. I have not found a way to switch the ohms on the receiver to match speakers. The DPR 1001 I had before this did have it and it was pretty easy to find, so I am assuming the 235 doesn't have it. As far as the sound at the louder levels, I am pretty impressed. The treble or higher sounds do get a little harsh for me when having it at -10, so I did turn the treble down a bit, but not much. This is probably personal preference/ears more than anything. My speakers frequency range is down to about 35hz or 38hz. I turned the subwoofer off, and the HK's really surprise me by how much bass I can get out of those speakers compared to when I had the Pioneer, or even the Yamaha (going by memory tho, wasn't able to do an A/B comparison). The floor above was vibrating along with some furniture downstairs, and thats without a subwoofer. However, it once again went into Protect mode after about 3 minutes at -10db. HK support has responded to questions before within about a day or so, so I think I will send them an email and see what they have to say. I don't know that they offer or suggest their receivers will support lower than 8 ohm speakers, but I think it is usually assumed they can. I am going to post around too maybe and see if any other users have any feedback on why it's going into protect. I checked the receiver right as it turned off and it wasn't even that warm, I was surprised by how cool it was still, hadn't been on that long all together, so I am kind of assuming it may have something to do with the speakers.

 

[Takeereasy]

When I gpt my very first set of speakers (they were a JBL N24 & N center 5.1 surround set + 1 exta smaller speaker I purchased open box) I had a very similar problem, The system sounded fine at low volumes but when I turned it up the system went into a protect mode. I called JBL customer support (run by a different company here in Canada) and they walked me through the steps, having me pull one speaker at a time and turn the system up to where it crapped out. It took a while to get it figured out because 2, not one speakers were defective, which in my sarcastic opinion explains the open box. That is my similar experience. But I also have read posts here that link this kind of problem to the amp.

Thanks for your help and opinions and sorry I don't have more to offer. Keep me up to speed on the HK.

 

[bradsands]

I picked up my yamaha rxv-1500 for 600 bucks at Ultimate Elec., but I'm sure you could get them to drop it to 550. The salesman I was working with said cost was around 515. Anyone in business knows a profit is a profit.

 

[Takeereasy]

Thanks bradsands. J&R.com is selling it for about that cost too, but it never hurts to have another place to comparison shop.

 

[armaraas]

FYI Update, I emailed HK tech support, and they said it is the speakers most likely causing the receiver to go into protect. The speakers are 6 ohm, but I did a little research and did find that in one user review at audioreview.com they mentioned a magazine review done right after the speaker model was released where they stated even 6 ohm was being generous, they easily drop down to 4 or lower. So I guess to me that is most likely the cause as well. No more listening at obnoxiously and deafening volumes. Oh well.

Still, I think the receiver performs fine and most likely will for the speakers he is getting, unless he is going to be blasting music. On the otherhand, I have had no problems in movies and even ran 5 channel stereo for a good 15 minutes or more at 0db and the receiver did not go into protect. That was the hottest I ever felt the receiver get so far, but it seemed to handle it.

 

[nm2285]

I would tell you hands down the HK. Even though sound differences among receivers in that price range aren't too great, there are some. I've always felt that the HKs provide the most robust, full, and inviting sound in that group. They also have a reputation for good power supplies. 6 ohms shouldn't be a problem with any of those receivers, but definately not with the HK.

With the PSBs which are very accurate, I think the "invitingness" of the HK will go nicely. Also, the x02 models of Onkyo have had some quality control problems in their video sections. I'd stay away from them if you're out ot impress.