I finally got my Paradigm Studio 60 speakers!

JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
Ironically, my Studio 60v3s are currnty attached to a circa 1989 Pioneer AVR (VSX9600 I believe)
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Just read this thread for the first time. My, my, TLS Guy! I understand that you have vast knowledge and experience in this field. However, your judgement of the Studo 60 contradicts a lot of other opinions. If your comparison between the B&Ws and the Paradigms was conducted in a properly conducted double-blind test, I'll accept what you say without question. However, I suspect that it wasn't...:)
 
ozmedia

ozmedia

Audioholic
Break-in

Re:
Speaker break-in occurs in less than a second.
Speaker break-in is dependant on the materials used, the surrounds, the motor structure and even the glue used. From personal experience, in my own soundroom, I find that RBH take 10-25 hours to really set in, depending on the cone materials, other brand I've worked with take a lot less time though. Even the temprature will effect break-in time. A cold room will take longer for break-in as butyl rubber and similar surround compounds are more brittle in the cold and resistant to movement.

The sound changes can be entirely the brand of amp used too. Take my vintage H/K amp for example, it sounds different than Yamaha and Toshiba amps made around the same time. A new Carver amp sounds completely different than a new Marantz amp. Every room sounds different too, volume, density these are just some of the many factors that change sound.

They will sound different to you as they break-in properly, plus your ears will adjust and start to discern sounds that you didn't hear before or on other speakers. It takes time, not a second.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
Speaker break-in is dependant on the materials used, the surrounds, the motor structure and even the glue used.
Can you point at any data to support that? The DBT and meter-analysis on "speaker break-in" fail to bear out this claim. Response *does* vary based on temperature; so a speaker gradually heating up may show distortion that's audible.

The sound changes can be entirely the brand of amp used too.
Which amps do you feel are broken. Any non-defective amp should be close enough to flat that the human ear cannot detect for a frequency range wider than human hearing.

So which amps do you believe are modifying the sound?

plus your ears will adjust and start to discern sounds that you didn't hear before or on other speakers.
Technically it's your brain, but yes: this part is very true and very supported by experimentation.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
had the amp connected to the preouts on the Yamaha and I did have it on pure direct mode so that the EQ settings from the Yamaha wasn't getting EQ'ed again with the Pioneer amp.
In pure direct mode you should not have to worry about any settings because everything to do with sound processing would have been turned off, in fact even the display should have been off.

I also tried hooking up the cd player to the Pioneer amp without using my receiver and both configurations sounded the same to me.
That would seem to indicate you heard no difference between the two preamps. That is not surprising because contrary to many common beliefs there isn't much reasons for most mid end preamps to sound different. It deals with low level signal and in pure direct it really does not do much other than allowing you to control the volume.

I have the front speakers set to large and the bass output to the front speakers only.
Again, in pure direct mode this should have no effect.

The difference in sound is big enough to notice because in bass heavy music I can clearly hear and feel more bass when using the Pioneer amp. With the Yamaha the bass is still there but just not as strong.
Maybe its because the Pioneer allows for +/-10db adjustments for the bass and treble settings which is more than what the Yamaha can do.
When you compared the Pioneer to the Yamaha in pure direct, you should have your Pioneer's tone controls set to neutral without any boost at all. You should also turn off any 'loudness' control. If you are only getting more bass from the Pioneer, it does not mean the Yamaha is lacking, it could mean the Pioneer is boosting the bass. In that case it does not mean the Pioneer sound better in terms of hi fidelity, but in terms of your own personal taste. By the way, you know you should level match the two amps in order to make a fair comparison right? Otherwise the louder one will appear to sound better, even if it is only slightly louder.

The only thing I worry about is what if adding an amp doesn't make that big of a difference because amps are not that cheap.
Today's power amps generally have a near ruler flat frequency response within the range audible to human so you can buy more than enough power and you won't get any bass boost unless you use tone controls/EQ etc. From what I have read so far, you are not going to be happy unless your Yamaha is hooked up to at least a 2 or 3 channle 250 to 400 WPC amp. I think you have convinced yourself that you need more power to get the best out of your Studio 60 speakers. I don't think anyone is going to change your mind and you will have to find out for yourself..:)
 
C

clouso

Banned
You also must realize that TLS Guy has a DIY system that very, very few, if any, commercial offerings could even come close to. His standards just may be a little bit higher than us mere mortals.;)
i dont care what he owns...saying that the studio 100 sound worst then a portable radio is just stupid and ridiculous!....:rolleyes:
 
J

JDawg

Junior Audioholic
When you compared the Pioneer to the Yamaha in pure direct, you should have your Pioneer's tone controls set to neutral without any boost at all. You should also turn off any 'loudness' control. If you are only getting more bass from the Pioneer, it does not mean the Yamaha is lacking, it could mean the Pioneer is boosting the bass. In that case it does not mean the Pioneer sound better in terms of hi fidelity, but in terms of your own personal taste. By the way, you know you should level match the two amps in order to make a fair comparison right? Otherwise the louder one will appear to sound better, even if it is only slightly louder.

Today's power amps generally have a near ruler flat frequency response within the range audible to human so you can buy more than enough power and you won't get any bass boost unless you use tone controls/EQ etc. From what I have read so far, you are not going to be happy unless your Yamaha is hooked up to at least a 2 or 3 channle 250 to 400 WPC amp. I think you have convinced yourself that you need more power to get the best out of your Studio 60 speakers. I don't think anyone is going to change your mind and you will have to find out for yourself..:)
You're right that the Pioneer was boosting the bass more than what the Yamaha could do. With the Pioneer I was able to get enough bass that I didn't even need to use my sub which is why I preferred the sound of the Pioneer more. Otherwise with all the tone control settings at neutral they both sounded the same.

I would really like to get an amp but I think I'll have to save up some money to buy one. The XPA-3 puts out 200 watts into 8 ohms but the XPA-2 is 250 watts so I'm not sure if that extra power will make any difference. The XPA-3 is also cheaper but has 3 channels so I'm still deciding which one I should get.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I would really like to get an amp but I think I'll have to save up some money to buy one. The XPA-3 puts out 200 watts into 8 ohms but the XPA-2 is 250 watts so I'm not sure if that extra power will make any difference. The XPA-3 is also cheaper but has 3 channels so I'm still deciding which one I should get.
For serious music listening I prefer the pure direct mode so I would go for the XPA-2. If SQ of HT is more important to you then you may prefer the XPA-3. If you have hard to drive speakers (not sure if yours are), the XPA-2 will be significantly better.
 
Lordoftherings

Lordoftherings

Banned
A few months ago I came on here asking for advice on if I should get the Paradigm Studio 60 or Energy RC70 speakers. Thanks to the helpful advice on here I finally bought the Studio 60 and a CC590 center speaker when they went on sale. I'll admit that once I got them home they didn't sound quite as good as what I remembered when I heard them in the store. They do sound better and more detailed compared to my old JBL speakers but its like there's something missing. I'm not sure how to describe it but it doesn't sound as full as what I heard in the store. The only differnce is that they were using an separate amplifier to power the speakers so would that have made a difference?

The manual says to break them in for several hours so how many hours would be good for break in? I have some music playing while I'm at work all day to help speed up the break in process.
Congrats! These are excellent speakers.

* Just use your regular power amp (or receiver).
About 100 hours should be fine (200 best).

** I'll go with the XPA-3 (your center channel will also appreciate).
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
* Just use your regular power amp (or receiver).
About 100 hours should be fine (200 best).
Are you aware of a single study you can point me at showing me a single measurable change between "broken in" for 5 minutes and 200 hours?

Other than the influence of temperature: Every test I've seen says that how the (non-defective) speaker performs after 5 minutes is how it will perform going forward.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Just read this thread for the first time. My, my, TLS Guy! I understand that you have vast knowledge and experience in this field. However, your judgement of the Studo 60 contradicts a lot of other opinions. If your comparison between the B&Ws and the Paradigms was conducted in a properly conducted double-blind test, I'll accept what you say without question. However, I suspect that it wasn't...:)
It was the Studio 100s I auditioned.

The dealership is one I have known and bought from over 25 years, with a well treated room. Electronics was by Rotel. The sound of the Paradigms and B & W 803s were vastly different.

The main comparison disc was the fourth movement of the Sibelius Symphony No.2. Telarc

Now this is a glorious symphony. I had heard it recently in Orchestra Hall Minneapolis under Osmo Vanska. So I had a good recent frame of reference. In a good performance it brings the house down, as Osmo succeeded in doing.

This last movement builds magnificently. There are massed high strings and a huge brass choir and frequent use of tympani. The scoring is fairly thick in places, but is full and lush and comes to a huge dramatic conclusion. It is a score that when reproduced badly is highly unpleasant. The paradigms failed miserably to give pleasure and make the blood run. This was largely on the basis of sins of commission.

The bass was poorly controlled and tymps obscured the bass stings. The forte high strings were unpleasant and edgy. The worst crime however was the brass, it was all lip over bell and unpleasantly strident. There was no perspective or sense of space.

The B & Ws on the other hand gave an excellent rendition, with the stings smooth and silky, good bass articulation and definition, even if they did not plumb the depths. The brass was glorious and warm and sounded as it should coming from the back over the orchestra, blazing in glory.

I can assure the speakers gave a totally different account and I know for certain which was the more accurate rendition and it was not the Paradigms.

After my audition a young couple came in to buy speakers. They were enthusiast of the the folk genre with acoustic instruments. Again the paradigms gave a poor account on the female vocal. The voice was poorly balanced with too much head voice. Even though the B & W were almost twice the price, there was no trouble clinching the deal for the B & Ws.

Now I admit the B & W were smaller and around twice the price, but they were far more than twice as good.

I have stated before that sins of commission on speakers a far less tolerable than sins of commission. Unfortunately far too many speakers with multiple drivers and crossover points are highly prone to gross sins of commission.

I think audio enthusiasts far too often get to tolerate a lot of these ills and come to accept them as a type of norm. Also in pop music electronically produced, there is no definite frame of reference. Here bad speakers can hide.

So yes, I personally do prefer a good humble table, or car radio with a full range speakers with paper cone, not prone to sudden abrupt disastrous cone break up. Yes, the last couple of octaves will be absent, but the bass won't boom all over the place. The critical midrange is often reasonably smooth without phase aberration, and the HF rolls off, but at least I won't have a poorly reproduced brass section boring a hole in my head. If you think this unreasonable, consider the speech clarity of a lot of expensive speakers compared to a humble full range paper cone speaker. Often it is not in favor of the expensive Hi-Fi speaker, and that's a problem.
 
Lordoftherings

Lordoftherings

Banned
Great post just above.

^ Now, that's what I called an objective post, with clear explanations.

Bravo! TLS Guy.
 
Lordoftherings

Lordoftherings

Banned
Are you aware of a single study you can point me at showing me a single measurable change between "broken in" for 5 minutes and 200 hours?

Other than the influence of temperature: Every test I've seen says that how the (non-defective) speaker performs after 5 minutes is how it will perform going forward.
Hi Jerry,

Yes, there are quite a few speakers that sounds best after a 'breakin' period.

Besides, Paradigm recommend 'breakin' most of their speakers for better performance. And it's not unusual to do so for 100 hours, or even 200 hours.
Many modern drivers are quite stiff with their compounds (harden material to make them durable, and at handling high pressure under demanding power output). So they need to be 'relaxed' to expand suitably with smoothness.
I'm not making that up, it's just common sense. Even the x-over and wiring can benefit of this.
Just ask the experts.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
Yes, there are quite a few speakers that sounds best after a 'breakin' period.
But can you point me to a single objective test to support that?

Besides, Paradigm recommend 'breakin' most of their speakers for better performance. And it's not unusual to do so for 100 hours, or even 200 hours.
And Denon has a $500 ethernet cable, and Salk until recently extoled $700 speaker cables. The question was: do you have any tests establishing that it makes a difference.

Many modern drivers are quite stiff with their compounds (harden material to make them durable, and at handling high pressure under demanding power output). So they need to be 'relaxed' to expand suitably with smoothness.
I'm not making that up, it's just common sense. Even the x-over and wiring can benefit of this.
Just ask the experts.
OK.
http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/speaker-break-in-fact-or-fiction

"the resulting amplitude response graphs indicated that an end user would likely encounter larger system-to-system amplitude response differences (~1.04 dB Spl) owing to normal driver variances than would be encountered breaking in raw drivers."

The conclusion seems to be 1) a burn-in takes seconds and 2) the changes made to sound are small.
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
Yep, those Studio 60 and 100's really stink if you have good ears.

I guess I have poor ears and according to this month's Stereophile review...so do they...

All that being said, the Studios dip down in the 3 ohm range and really open up if you give them some power. Mine sound dead when ran off an AVR even at lower volumes. I know, I know, this doesn't make sense but it happens. Warp has noticed the same thing but I think he has bad ears too.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
I've had some odd experiences with Paradigm (and I do own several).

When I first listened (studio v3 in the store) the 20s were the most clear, the 40s a bit more muddy, but also fuller, and it went down from there (more muddy with little more fulness).

I ended up with 40s, and much later 60s at home. They sound very different in different rooms. There's been a *lot* of change with small placement moves. I once bi-wired and got a dramatic improvement... I think because in the process I repositioned the speakers (I'm back at single-wiring).

In short: my experience with the Studios is that their performance can be greatly influenced by seemingly minor room changes (as well as major ones like size).

Oh: those 60s I found way too muddy are doing well in my family room: though I think I'm going to sell them as I still prefer my Infinity RS IIIb's
 
Lordoftherings

Lordoftherings

Banned
But can you point me to a single objective test to support that?

And Denon has a $500 ethernet cable, and Salk until recently extoled $700 speaker cables. The question was: do you have any tests establishing that it makes a difference.

OK.
http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/speaker-break-in-fact-or-fiction

"the resulting amplitude response graphs indicated that an end user would likely encounter larger system-to-system amplitude response differences (~1.04 dB Spl) owing to normal driver variances than would be encountered breaking in raw drivers."

The conclusion seems to be 1) a burn-in takes seconds and 2) the changes made to sound are small.
Hey Jerry,

1. Nope. Only from people's ears.

2. Nope. Same as in #1.

3. Thanks for the great link, very interesting. :)

* I'll stick with my personal opinion, but I do appreciate your interest on that matter. ;)

** Now, about the benefits of bi-wiring... ;)

Cheers man,
Bob
 
J

JDawg

Junior Audioholic
Congrats! These are excellent speakers.

* Just use your regular power amp (or receiver).
About 100 hours should be fine (200 best).

** I'll go with the XPA-3 (your center channel will also appreciate).
Thanks, I've been enjoying them more and more lately. Music just sounds so good that I've started listening to some of my older cd's all over again.

I'm leaning towards getting the XPA-3 and I can see how the extra power would help improve the speakers but how exactly will the center channel benefit from more power? It sounds nice and clear already and I can't imagine my speakers sounding any better.
 
Lordoftherings

Lordoftherings

Banned
Thanks, I've been enjoying them more and more lately. Music just sounds so good that I've started listening to some of my older cd's all over again.

I'm leaning towards getting the XPA-3 and I can see how the extra power would help improve the speakers but how exactly will the center channel benefit from more power? It sounds nice and clear already and I can't imagine my speakers sounding any better.
Your Paradigm center speaker is a great one, and it will benefit from the extra juice of the Emotiva XPA-3. As your two front mains, the center is even more important in any system (multichannel audio & video wise).
Give it all you can.

And besides at only $539 (when on sale) you cannot loose with the XPA-3, can you?

))) But if you're happy with it right now, go ahead and put all that juice to your two front mains, with the XPA-2, an even better power amp, from who, your two front main Paradigms will love it. (The XPA-2 is $719, when on sale.)

It's your call. Either way, you're a winner. :)

P.S. According to some people (and I do agree with that), it is better to give your three front speakers the same power from the same amp, for audio consistency.
 
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Lordoftherings

Lordoftherings

Banned
To the OP, JDawg.

By the way JDawg, I'm sure that the B&W 803 speakers are marvellous sounding, as in if you can afford them, and love the British sound.
But the Paradigm Studio 60s, for their price are simply a great value speaker,
and with great sound performance too, and made in Canada, just like us. :)

* We ain't talking about CD players or interconnects, or speaker wires here;
it's all about value speakers. And these Studio 60s will benefit from powerful amplification, no doubt about it.

** Oh, please, can you tell me if you notice a difference in sound from the first time that you got them till now?

Cheers,
Bob
 
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