I drew a simple diagram of my living room, could someone pls advise where to set up the calibration mic?

[19Chris67]

I’m not quite sure how much gear-detail or room specifics would be necessary for an informed opinion—but I can give more if asked. Thank you.

Left/Right
Center
Subsx2

 

[-Jim-]

Typically we all ask for the equipment model numbers and locations for the speakers. We also like to know how many speakers and what type of system you are trying to set up and if it's Atmos or ?. A 3.2; 5.2; 7.2; 5.2.2; 7.2.4, etc., etc. You have In-Ceiling (?) for your left & Right; and an In-Wall for the Center. Are there more speakers (other than the 2 Subs)?

Typically you set up from your preferred listening position and depending upon the Receiver, it will have it's own procedure to move it about from there. It's in the manual.

Please advise the details asked so we can be of more help.

 

[19Chris67]

Typically we all ask for the equipment model numbers and locations for the speakers. We also like to know how many speakers and what type of system you are trying to set up and if it's Atmos or ?. A 3.2; 5.2; 7.2; 5.2.2; 7.2.4, etc., etc. You have In-Ceiling (?) for your left & Right; and an In-Wall for the Center. Are there more speakers (other than the 2 Subs)?

Typically you set up from your preferred listening position and depending upon the Receiver, it will have it's own procedure to move it about from there. It's in the manual.

Please advise the details asked so we can be of more help.

Hello Jim, thank you for your response. The AVR is a Denon S920W but I plan to upgrade to the Denon-X3700H and TV’s a 75” QN90A.

The speaker location and setup is a give-and-take situation. We’re in the living room. I want a 5.2.2, she doesn’t want speakers in the living room—at all. We’ve reached a compromise via in-walls by Focal. As far as location, only one is set in stone. The center channel will be just above the fireplace mantle and the L/R are yet to be determined so advise there is needed. That’s an unaddressed conundrum I’m hoping to figure out here with the help of this forum. Maybe I should open that can of worms now?

At best I’ll have a 5.2 but here’s the thing..the living room’s an open floor plan i.e., living room/dining room/galley kitchen. Openings everywhere. Challenging in terms of finding a home for surrounds..which I’d love to accomplish but I might have to get my thinking down to just a 3.2 setup.

In-ceiling as left and right; Yes, I like the idea of three of the three-way IW6’s across the front but they come at a much greater cost and ICW8’s save about $1000. These 8’s are closest in sensitivity and frequency response—and (compromise) they’re in the same line.

Preferred listening position; Two—and at opposite sides of the room. Here’s where (in a perfect world) compromise would’ve been nice and we met in the middle. But no. She loves her most versatile corner on the right and I dig my ez-chair on the left. Which brings me here to this forum for advise. PLP1b vs PLP1a, ez-chair v couch-corner.

Can’t tell her “take everything (and coach)—leave chair” then scoot my chair to the middle. So..I figured setting up the audyssey between the two MLP’s would be best?

 

[19Chris67]

Typically we all ask for the equipment model numbers and locations for the speakers. We also like to know how many speakers and what type of system you are trying to set up and if it's Atmos or ?. A 3.2; 5.2; 7.2; 5.2.2; 7.2.4, etc., etc. You have In-Ceiling (?) for your left & Right; and an In-Wall for the Center. Are there more speakers (other than the 2 Subs)?

Typically you set up from your preferred listening position and depending upon the Receiver, it will have it's own procedure to move it about from there. It's in the manual.

Please advise the details asked so we can be of more help.

I’m back to the drawing board Jim. As it turns out, the ICW8’s as L/R are too deep for my 2x4 interior walls. I’m certainly glad I realized this before ordering. However, now I’m tasked with finding suitable replacements. I’m planning on asking for forgiveness not permission. I don’t know where to start really. Should I go with what most closely matches the Focal IW6 center:

• frequency response: 40-28,000 Hz
• recommended amplifier power: 50-150 watts
• sensitivity: 92 dB

Or with popular choices like the HSU CCB-8 or more affordable, front ported Elac Debut 2.0 B6.2 or the Q150 or 350 by Kef.

What a major bummer as I sure didn’t need to go backwards in research not to mention the whole WAF thing.

 

[-Jim-]

Sorry to hear about your struggles with the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor). We typically don't see In-Ceilings, as Left & Right main speakers, as a compromise. (A Surrender? ) Are the speakers already bought & installed ? Are the In-Ceilings going to be in the ceiling, or in the wall? Where? How high off the floor (in inches or meters) is "just above the fireplace mantle"? I'm struggling to visualize this setup. A Room layout with more details please.

Fundamentally speaker layout is simple for Home Theater. In a 5.2 system the 5 speakers are at or near ear level when seated, and envelope the listeners. (Surround Sound if you will.) Anything else is a compromise, and sometimes an expensive compromise, and at some point, if folks stray too far, just not worth the effort. Are Box Speakers not allowed? Where is the TV located (Not above the mantle please).

Oops now you posted the above...

 

[-Jim-]

OK, let's start over.

Can you advise the answers to the questions above. The TV and primary seating locations dictate a lot regarding layout.

I have the HSU CCB-8s across the Front of our 5.2.4 (someday a 7.2.4) Atmos System, and they are fabulous. For you I'd suggest just getting two across the Front, and forget about a Center if WAF continues to be an issue. Run it as a Phantom Center Set-up. You can always add a Center later if you pre-wire for it.

What would drive you to go from a Denon S920W to the Denon-X3700H?

 

[Pogre]

I’m planning on asking for forgiveness not permission.

*Pogre grins and twirls his mustache...

Well, let's see how forgiving she is then!

Should I go with what most closely matches the Focal IW6 center:

Hmm... if you're sticking with a Focal center channel I'd try to stay with Focal. Not a bad thing to be stuck with, and I think they make some of the prettiest tower and bookshelf speakers so that might help you with WAF. Do you already have the center?

A proper setup is pretty critical to how well your system can perform. Speaker placement and room acoustics have the most influence on performance by a very large margin. This is not to say it won't sound good if it isn't perfect, but the further you stray from ideal the more potential for acoustic problems like negative reflections or cancellation you introduce. Generally every compromise will cost you something in sound quality. The best speakers in the world can sound like crap with poor enough placement and seating.

In walls can work, but they're a compromise of form over function and generally cost more in dollars per performance for the good ones. I would want my front 3 to be regular free standing speakers then maybe go in wall for the surrounds. I wouldn't want surround speakers in the ceiling. That is where any atmos speakers should go.

 

[Eppie]

How far apart are the L+R going to be? If they will be mounted right beside the TV, then I would forgo the centre and go with two of the Focal IW6. Your wife might prefer not to have anything above the fireplace mantel so that the mantel can be used as a display area. If the L+R are going to be a good 10 or 12 feet apart, then I would consider a centre.

CCB-8 is probably as small and unassuming as you'll get. The Q350 is available in white, though, as well as the SB1000Pro. Many hate black boxes in the living room and find white speakers more aesthetically pleasing. If you are set on in-walls, you can also consider Triad, an American manufacturer with a full line-up. DigitalDawn on these forums is a dealer and offers free design services.

 

[19Chris67]

Lol Jim, no worries, I get the ‘tv over fp’ eye-roll all the time. Admittedly more so on interior design sites such as HOUZZ.

OK..full disclosure; in terms of audiophile quality home theater, this can’t be expected to be that. Too many obstacles—both literally and figuratively. That said, we’re shooting for something ‘significantly’ to way better than QN90A audio (she couldn’t care less). As much wow as possible given the obstacles and limitations. With the Focal three-way, I feel that mission’s already accomplished. Any more in terms of left and right that results in a harmonic front stage I’ll consider gravy. That’s our goal.

The center (although not ideal) is 50 inches from the floor.

I’ll can pre-wire for surrounds but initially I think I’d be wise to setup for a 3.2 system. I don’t think surrounds will be possible as the couch is flanked on either side by “pass-thru” door-openings to the kitchen. More on that later if necessary.

Meanwhile, regarding the living room layout. Everything is bolted down (metaphorically). Couch, fireplace, buffet-table, all non-starters and non-negotiable as far as moving them..I lost in that deal and can’t fight it, not sleeping alone or eating sandwiches.

In a nutshell, I guess I’ll grab a couple of speakers that I could side mount to the fireplace bump-out and let her win with the mantel and rest of the crap. The bump-out is 24 inches by the way. I may end up going with something like a small bookshelf (perhaps the kef 150) with some sort of side mount bracket that can sit flush with the front of the bump-out/center channel.

The Kef’s have a beautiful walnut finish and the bump-out sports a beautiful new solid black-walnut mantel. She may go for that without much of a fuss. Question is, do they work mechanically with my center? At all? They only get down to 86 dB. Deal breaker?

I mean, they’re affordable, small and not bad to look at??

 

[19Chris67]

I have to do some things and then revisit later this afternoon. Just saw there were more replies!

 

[-Jim-]

Okay, TV is above the Fireplace. Furniture is also locked into position. Check.

@Eppie is correct about the Front Speakers. You are going to waste you time, and $$ for the Center Speaker, if the L&R are just on either side of your QN90 (By the way we bought a Samsung QN75QN85A for the Atmos setup in the Games Room. We love it!) But putting in-walls probably won't work because of depth issue you described earlier, and bump-out interference. Of course the WAF may go away if you squeeze them in but I doubt the result would be very satisfying. But yes, if the baseline is better sound than a QN90, you will accomplish that. (It's quite a low bar to jump over. )

Without dimensions it's hard to give recommendations for the speaker locations, other than two off the Fireplace bump-out as you describe. I'm into sound and don't expect my speakers to be fine furniture. As I gave my wife free rein on almost everything during our main floor reno a couple years back (big $$), she never pushed back much on my choices for the HT systems. (Yes, we have 3 HT systems, but I'm an Audioholic and I know I have a problem...) She just wanted me to avoid Towers, or any Large speakers. Of course the Subs did cause a few discussions.

My first guess is to put book shelves off wall brackets to the left of the Buffet Table, and to the Right of the Audio Rack (if you can nudge it a bit to the left). But once you give dimensions we can move from there.

 

[19Chris67]

Thanks I think we’re onto something. I’m optimistic anyway. I’ll get back to you ASAP thanks again guys everybody

 

[19Chris67]

My first guess is to put book shelves off wall brackets to the left of the Buffet Table, and to the Right of the Audio Rack (if you can nudge it a bit to the left). But once you give dimensions we can move from there.

I wish I had three home theaters. Heck, I’d settle for just half one at the moment. The Fireplace surround is 76 to 77” wide if memory serves. Which measurements am I lacking Jim? I’ll see what I can do tonight.

I believe I’m locked-in with using the Focal center channel, can’t return it.

 

[19Chris67]

Eppie, Pogre, I’m playing catch-up apologies.

 

[19Chris67]

Geez, my head is spinning. I’m afraid it’s paralysis analysis at this point. All I know is I’m eating/selling the focal center (Unlikel—but probably wise) and going phantom with CCB-8’s or keeping it thus stumped on what/where to flank.

I just don’t see it looking good no matter where I put bookshelf’s for example. As far as left left side of Buffay table right right side of rack here are some measurements Jim.

Time to have some vegetable soup and call it a night.

 

[-Jim-]

Chris,

Sorry to rain on your parade, but Yes you probably have evaluated the Focal In-Wall Center correctly. Are you certain it will fit in the Fireplace wall? That would definitely kill off it's use here if it wouldn't fit.

If you really wanted to use the Focal IW6 center, you could go to Bookshelf Speakers (Focal?) on brackets along that wall somewhat equidistant from the center of the Fireplace. How high is the buffet table? I'd try to get them to a maximum of about 16 feet apart at ear level but ~2 feet away from the wall /corner. Hence a shift of the Audio rack if it's in the way. But that's just a way to consume the Center Speaker already in hand, and fill the room with sound.

Perhaps buy stands for Bookshelves (Focals?) and try them as described above, or forsake the install of the IW6 and put them (or CCB-8s?) on either side of the Fireplace with cables long enough to move them about to test were they sound the best for you with your Subs. If you couldn't live with long cables, you could wire to a speaker termination plates and just plug them in. Say one on each side of the Fireplace and another two for the outboard placement. That way you could tuck them in beside the Fireplace (better WAF) when appropriate, and then move to a wider soundstage when you want to get into it.

I look forward to your comments to my concepts.

 

[Eppie]

Tricky placement, this one. I checked the Focal 300IW6 in-wall and it is 3 11/16" deep (same as the centre), so the same depth as a standard 2x4. It might bump up against the drywall on the back but the construction looks pretty solid. A little more money than the ceiling speakers ($790 on Crutchfield) but a better match to the centre. The down side is that in-walls will be set back compared to the centre because the centre is mounted in the fire place bump out. Book shelves would get the front plane of the speaker closer to the front plane of the centre.

I believe the op said that he didn't want to spend the money on 3 of the 300 IW6 LCR ($1190). Focal bookshelves will be close to that. Best match in my opinion is the Aria 906 at $1990 a pair. The Chora 806 is half that price but I'm not sure how the Chora will match to the 300 IW6 centre. The Aria is also a much prettier speaker with the rounded front edge and curved grill. The Chora might be a better match, timbre wise, to the centre than the KEFs, though, coming from the same manufacturer.

For KEF mains, I'd be tempted to step up to the Q350 but the current pricing on the Q150 is very attractive as they are on sale. While the KEFs are not as sensitive as the centre, it's not necessarily a deal breaker since you can dial the centre back within the AVR setup menu. The HSU CCB-8 look very nice in the rosenut and the sensitivity matches the centre. Hard to say how the KEF or Hsu will match the centre though as far as the sound profile goes.

 

[19Chris67]

Good morning guys..thank you for hanging in there. First thoughts; “how can I get Jim, Eppie and Pogre here to do a lesser install” because undoubtedly you’d look at this space—do a little figuring and bing-bang lickety-split, finished.

I read this morning with coffee..see you too Eppie, bear with me..

 

[Pogre]

You're good man! It's actually kinda refreshing to work with someone who's open to rethinking and consider advice. There are some dollars tied up in this and you wanna do it right. We're right with ya.

I will say I agree with nixing the center altogether if the mains are close enough together, and the CCB-8s mounted omn the would be an excellent choice for a phantom center. Or go with Focal books and keep the center. Usually manufacturers voice all of their speakers to be able to mix and match. In either case I'd want to mount the mains on the bump outs.

 

[19Chris67]

Chris,

Sorry to rain on your parade, but Yes you probably have evaluated the Focal In-Wall Center correctly. Are you certain it will fit in the Fireplace wall? That would definitely kill off it's use here if it wouldn't fit.

If you really wanted to use the Focal IW6 center, you could go to Bookshelf Speakers (Focal?) on brackets along that wall somewhat equidistant from the center of the Fireplace. How high is the buffet table? I'd try to get them to a maximum of about 16 feet apart at ear level but ~2 feet away from the wall /corner. Hence a shift of the Audio rack if it's in the way. But that's just a way to consume the Center Speaker already in hand, and fill the room with sound.

Perhaps buy stands for Bookshelves (Focals?) and try them as described above, or forsake the install of the IW6 and put them (or CCB-8s?) on either side of the Fireplace with cables long enough to move them about to test were they sound the best for you with your Subs. If you couldn't live with long cables, you could wire to a speaker termination plates and just plug them in. Say one on each side of the Fireplace and another two for the outboard placement. That way you could tuck them in beside the Fireplace (better WAF) when appropriate, and then move to a wider soundstage when you want to get into it.

I look forward to your comments to my concepts.

Right, so the height of the buff table is 50 inches, with the right side about 16 inches from the fireplace. I can accommodate a smaller bookshelf there. The height of the audio rack is just 36 inches with sufficient surface-area for right channel.

So the height differences may be concerning Jim, it’s the buffet table that’s 50, not the mantel (57 inches). 50>57>36 respectively. That 21 inch difference between L/R isn’t a deal breaker for me. Make my day—tell me it’s still doable? If not, maybe there’s an articulating-arm bracket.

My thoughts on foregoing the center channel are negative. Too much money in it. Yes, it will indeed fit easily in the wall cavity behind the mantel, w plenty of vertical space both above and below the grill. Although, as Eppie points out, I’ll have to scoot mantel-display stuff out the way at movie time. No big deal tho.

That said—and although they’re a great speaker, I can move forward excluding the CCB-8’s and phantom center concept from consideration.

OK guys in summary and after careful consideration the one that jumps out the most and by a large margin is the Kef 150 as Eppie suggests. Besides the sale price being very appealing, they’re attractive. Also, they’re available in both white and walnut, both very good aesthetically.

With that, can I get a second vote of confidence Jim that these speakers will play well together once “dialed back”? And—are the height differences needing to be addressed by a casual listener? If so, what suggestions would you make? I’m rather happy at the moment but also cautious rain may soon befall parade.

LP Distances to Speakers:

LP1A
R = 21’ @ 33°
L = 13’ @ 62°
C = 16’ @ 42°

LP1B
R = 17’ @ 80°
L = 19’ @ 62°
C = 16’ @ 80°

R speaker: 2’-6” from wall corner