I’d like to get burned on this opinion question.

KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I can offer this example of too hot upright bass (right at the intro)!
 
9397SVTs

9397SVTs

Audioholic
I do not claim to be the benchmark for using Audyssey. :)
More than anything, with the introduction of our friend @9397SVTs and their headlong dive into ordering a Umik-1, I'm afraid we have a new thread headed our way! :eek: :p
Both my room and my preferences may be on one end of the spectrum.
My main point was (and could have been poorly described as) being about the normal way Audyssey works. If our friend did not adjust Sub Gain to the Green Zone in the set up phase... who knows what they are experincing? With the proper protocol we know, defined, we should all be able to speak the same language with the same meaning. ;)

That said:

@9397SVTs :
It would be helpful to us, as friends willing and ready to offer assistance and guidance, to know what your setup scenario is. Perhaps a new thread for your specific needs could be handy! ;)
Such basic information as:
Your Gear, your listening distance, your room volume (stated above, but best if included again with all other relevant info)... ANYTHING! that may help us help you, including some pics of the front wall and overall layout.

:D

Cheers!
R
Sure. I'll start a new thread in Beginners and Audiophytes.

Thanks.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Overlord
Just been browsing a lot on subwoofers. I’m not in the market. I’m super happy with my HSU subs. But a question. Why do most feel Rel subs are better for music than Rythmik??? I don’t get it. But I also chose the ULS 15’s over both those brands. Opinions??!!
Rythmik subs are not purposely built for music or HT. They excel in both applications whether they are ported or sealed.
 
CB22

CB22

Full Audioholic
As I recall some of the lessons we’ve had from Headmaster Shady, driver and cabinet design, port tuning, group delay... All of these contributed early on to the creation of that myth. Most of these problems have been left in the past, now. With any of the companies we typically discuss.
It seems that when you move beyond that story, what you are left with is deciding on the FR and output profile (infrasonic v. Mid-bass), then the size and connectivity/UI options.
Other than matching Sub to room size, which includes sealed subs for rooms below 3000cu.ft, or support for large and extreme rooms, there is very little left to worry about.

In the end, the outliers are subs that have not been handled in-depth for third party tests. At this point, that is newer Rythmik and PSA subs. There are some older reviews of Rythmik on DataBass. If anything has changed with them, I can’t say.

But what I can say is that I would not use sealed subs unless I had a room smaller than 3000cu.ft, and be able to employ 3-4 in the room. Even still, my 2 porteds perform very well in my 2000cu.ft. room. Even @CB22 found the outlaws to perform well enough that he moved his old Hsus out iirc.
In the end it’s all about setting the subs up right in your room. If you get that done well, and you have a sub of solid quality and performance, there should be no musicality concerns.
Hey dude, sorry I haven’t been active recently. Been super busy with work and 2 moves all in the last year. Finally getting settle in a new house. The outlaws are in a new room about twice the size of my old one and I’m liking them even more. They sound even better now that they have a bigger space to live in. Unfortunately sub placement is an issue for me. The house has kind of an odd layout and I’d like to not trip over them every time I’m walking around. I’ll get some pics up soon.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
Rythmik subs are not purposely built for music or HT. They excel in both applications whether they are ported or sealed.
IIRC they do market somewhat on the sealed/ported music/ht thing, tho.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Ninja
Hey dude, sorry I haven’t been active recently. Been super busy with work and 2 moves all in the last year. Finally getting settle in a new house. The outlaws are in a new room about twice the size of my old one and I’m liking them even more. They sound even better now that they have a bigger space to live in. Unfortunately sub placement is an issue for me. The house has kind of an odd layout and I’d like to not trip over them every time I’m walking around. I’ll get some pics up soon.
Good to hear from you CB! Hope you are doing well through all of this craziness.

I remember you moving once... also talking about leaving NO... you still down there?

BTW? How do you trip over an X-13 unless you are blackout drunk? :p Too many Sazeracs? :D

Cheers!
R
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
Who doesn't have a marketing angle?
I'm not particularly a fan of their continuing such....nor do I find their servo technology particularly appealing. YMMV.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Overlord
I'm not particularly a fan of their continuing such....nor do I find their servo technology particularly appealing. YMMV.
Their servo technology works extremely well and I have heard changes in bass pitch with movies such as Live, Die, and Repeat that I didnt hear with my previous subwoofer. As a ported sub, it also does extremely well for music being tight and punchy. Just curious, have you heard them or is your dislike for servo an opinion based on someone elses opinion.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
Their servo technology works extremely well and I have heard changes in bass pitch with movies such as Live, Die, and Repeat that I didnt hear with my previous subwoofer. As a ported sub, it also does extremely well for music being tight and punchy. Just curious, have you heard them or is your dislike for servo an opinion based on someone elses opinion.
I wasn't referring to their servo technology, which I don't find particularly important, but rather the music/sealed ported/ht marketing thing. I have had another servo sub, tho.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Their servo technology works extremely well and I have heard changes in bass pitch with movies such as Live, Die, and Repeat that I didnt hear with my previous subwoofer. As a ported sub, it also does extremely well for music being tight and punchy. Just curious, have you heard them or is your dislike for servo an opinion based on someone elses opinion.
Infrasonic bass can't be described with pitch. Below 20 Hz or so, human hearing isn't able to discern pitch in low frequencies. The bass in the opening scene of Edge of Tomorrow is a 10 Hz square wave at nearly full scale. Hardly any subs are going to play the fundamental of a 10 Hz square wave at all. What is being reproduced is the harmonics as well as distortion products, and that is what you would be hearing. A tone like that will make subs sound different, because it will hit their limits in one way or another. The sub's limits are one way a sub can audibly separate itself from others, because there are all kinds of performance trade-off at that point that a designer can make. The thing is, if you are running your sub where it reaches its limits frequently, you are overdriving it, and so you either need a bigger sub or more subs. I would argue that behavior at the limits don't matter that much so long as you have enough dynamic range for your application, and so long as the sub is protected from destroying itself in the event that they do get over-driven.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Spartan
Infrasonic bass can't be described with pitch. Below 20 Hz or so, human hearing isn't able to discern pitch in low frequencies. The bass in the opening scene of Edge of Tomorrow is a 10 Hz square wave at nearly full scale. Hardly any subs are going to play the fundamental of a 10 Hz square wave at all. What is being reproduced is the harmonics as well as distortion products, and that is what you would be hearing. A tone like that will make subs sound different, because it will hit their limits in one way or another. The sub's limits are one way a sub can audibly separate itself from others, because there are all kinds of performance trade-off at that point that a designer can make. The thing is, if you are running your sub where it reaches its limits frequently, you are overdriving it, and so you either need a bigger sub or more subs. I would argue that behavior at the limits don't matter that much so long as you have enough dynamic range for your application, and so long as the sub is protected from destroying itself in the event that they do get over-driven.
Pretty much agree with all this. Except to say, maybe DB meant to say he could feel the different frequency speeds as opposed to pitch. I’m pretty good down to about 14hz and while I don’t detect pitch in those lower frequencies, I can feel the speed differences in different HZ. 15hz for example is definitely different than 18hz. If there are upper harmonics that accompany the lower frequencies that could make it seem like “pitch” since that would be more easily detected. However from running sine waves I can definitely feel different frequencies. Granted it’s not crystal clear, but still apparent.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Ninja
Try The Saga of Harrison Crabfeathers from the Wood album....
Ok... Between the two cuts, Evolution and Crabfeathers, I feel more bass being transmitted through the structure on Evolution. This is physical transference of LF Energy, specifically. It is slight, but more than I felt listening to Bromberg, which had some to be certain.
I pulled out the SPL meter to make certain the cuts were as close as possible in level, which they were. They both mostly hung in the upper 70s with slight forays into the low 80s.
Again, for me, this is about the tactile response I get from that one cut: one of the reasons I started using it in auditions. ;) (Also, I find Lovano's tone and technique quite fun for hearing a speaker's characteristics. Brecker, by comparison is fun to listen to and one of the greatest, but his tone doesn't have the subtlety that Lovano does.)

Just for a comparison with Dave Holland on Bass... I also pulled out Michael Brecker's Song for Bilbao:
This cut, the Bass is much more properly blended in the mix and does not vibrate me. :D SPL is pretty much on par with the other cuts, a few instances of Michael and Pat Metheny hitting slightly higher peaks... I think I saw a few pop at 85, but very short lived with almost all of the rest of the cut living at the same level mentioned before.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
Ok... Between the two cuts, Evolution and Crabfeathers, I feel more bass being transmitted through the structure on Evolution. This is physical transference of LF Energy, specifically. It is slight, but more than I felt listening to Bromberg, which had some to be certain.
I pulled out the SPL meter to make certain the cuts were as close as possible in level, which they were. They both mostly hung in the upper 70s with slight forays into the low 80s.
Again, for me, this is about the tactile response I get from that one cut: one of the reasons I started using it in auditions. ;) (Also, I find Lovano's tone and technique quite fun for hearing a speaker's characteristics. Brecker, by comparison is fun to listen to and one of the greatest, but his tone doesn't have the subtlety that Lovano does.)

Just for a comparison with Dave Holland on Bass... I also pulled out Michael Brecker's Song for Bilbao:
This cut, the Bass is much more properly blended in the mix and does not vibrate me. :D SPL is pretty much on par with the other cuts, a few instances of Michael and Pat Metheny hitting slightly higher peaks... I think I saw a few pop at 85, but very short lived with almost all of the rest of the cut living at the same level mentioned before.
Okay am going to have to listen to these again....
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Overlord
Infrasonic bass can't be described with pitch. Below 20 Hz or so, human hearing isn't able to discern pitch in low frequencies. The bass in the opening scene of Edge of Tomorrow is a 10 Hz square wave at nearly full scale. Hardly any subs are going to play the fundamental of a 10 Hz square wave at all. What is being reproduced is the harmonics as well as distortion products, and that is what you would be hearing. A tone like that will make subs sound different, because it will hit their limits in one way or another. The sub's limits are one way a sub can audibly separate itself from others, because there are all kinds of performance trade-off at that point that a designer can make. The thing is, if you are running your sub where it reaches its limits frequently, you are overdriving it, and so you either need a bigger sub or more subs. I would argue that behavior at the limits don't matter that much so long as you have enough dynamic range for your application, and so long as the sub is protected from destroying itself in the event that they do get over-driven.
Who said anything about the start of the movie? I sure as hell didnt. I didnt detect any pitch changes in that bass sequence.
 

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