Human Perception is the #1 variable

[shadyJ]

Someone said in a post that if you want to be an "audiophile" you gotta know Floyd Tooles work. I don't know that I want to be an "audiophile" but I do think an understanding of his work is a good place to base some basic assumptions.

If an objective standard flows out of his stuff, I'm good with that. I think it may end up like Exxon mobile buying up patents for alternate fuel cars and simply putting those ideas out to pasture. The audio industry isn't interested in objective standards. Not that I've seen. End users and consumers might be, but I don't sense the sellers are keen on it.

The word 'audiophile' is mostly pejorative thanks to the all shysters, ignoramuses, and general anti-science milieu. I don't like much of 'audiophilia' ie. all the snake-oil, yet I do enjoy a great sound and I enjoy learning about how great sound is reproduced, so I don't escape the base definition of 'audiophile'. I like to think I am just of a different school of thought than those subjectivists.

I don't quite agree with your assertion that the industry isn't interested in objective standards, because it it wasn't, we wouldn't have CEA-2010, CEA-2034, much of the work done by Floyd Toole, Sean Olive, among many others. It's true that swaths of the industry isn't interested in objectivity, especially in the exotic high end, but there are definitely those who are interested in it, because otherwise this website would not exist!

 

[highfigh]

highfigh,
I must be an idjit. I don't see anything that allows me to indicate or display location. I recognize cockpit error is often the source of why I can't find stuff. Nonetheless, I am bereft of location ability.

I usually attribute this kind of thing to vapor lock.

 

[highfigh]

The Warrior
I agree: for scientific testing and measurement, monophonic sound is the only what to go. I don't do much of that, but, I understand the principal and agree. I must confess, I do not know what CEA 2034 is. It sounds like from your brief description it is some sort of objective, numbers based appraisal of equipment. If you have a plain english description (using short, single syllable words) of it, I would like to know a little more. Don't cut n paste me a lengthy article that will exceed my ADD's attention span, but if you can explain it, I would love to know more.

Here. Tells how to test stuff.

It describes the method for speaker testing.

http://www.y-adagio.com/public/committees/iec_tc100_ags/meetings/33/100ags539.pdf

 

[Bucknekked]

Why would they be? Then their speakers might sound like the other speakers and then they'd really have to compete for that $$$. As is, they can just bs their way to their customers.
Most of the cable would be history, a very good thing.

mtrycrafts:
I took a look at the link you included in your reply. What a beautiful home and some great toys. I'm sure that took you a while to put together. It also seems the dates are back far enough you may have had time for equipment upgrades. I am interested in the equalizers you have installed. It looks like you have at least 3. Just the shear number is a story in itself I'm sure. Its one of the remaining pieces of my puzzle I need to tackle : using some EQ on my system to take some humps and bumps out of my room.

Cables seem to be an ongoing saga. You have a long history on this forum (if you just look at the shear number of posts you have) and you may have seen quite a number of cable trends come and go. I am a newb to the forum, but not to audio in general. This whole idea of exotic cables was something I was never aware of because quite frankly, until the last decade, there's no way I had any spare change for something that reeks of snake oil. Magic cables is one fad I have managed to completely avoid. Through poverty, not expertise.

I did see someone post recently they had some batteries for sale that would install on a particular brand of cables. I didn't go back to that thread again. I used my new found expertise to avoid that subject.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...
I don't quite agree with your assertion that the industry isn't interested in objective standards, because it it wasn't, we wouldn't have CEA-2010, CEA-2034, much of the work done by Floyd Toole, Sean Olive, among many others. It's true that swaths of the industry isn't interested in objectivity, especially in the exotic high end, but there are definitely those who are interested in it, because otherwise this website would not exist!

I just wonder who were the folks who developed those standards, which speaker companies were they in or are in and if they do follow those guidelines.
Of course I know of and about Floyd and his protege. And a few of the Canadian companies that did follow the Canadian NRC research that Floy and company did for 20+ years. But, they are the minority, I am pretty sure.

 

[mtrycrafts]

mtrycrafts:
I took a look at the link you included in your reply. What a beautiful home and some great toys. I'm sure that took you a while to put together. It also seems the dates are back far enough you may have had time for equipment upgrades. I am interested in the equalizers you have installed. It looks like you have at least 3. Just the shear number is a story in itself I'm sure. Its one of the remaining pieces of my puzzle I need to tackle : using some EQ on my system to take some humps and bumps out of my room.

Cables seem to be an ongoing saga. You have a long history on this forum (if you just look at the shear number of posts you have) and you may have seen quite a number of cable trends come and go. I am a newb to the forum, but not to audio in general. This whole idea of exotic cables was something I was never aware of because quite frankly, until the last decade, there's no way I had any spare change for something that reeks of snake oil. Magic cables is one fad I have managed to completely avoid. Through poverty, not expertise.

I did see someone post recently they had some batteries for sale that would install on a particular brand of cables. I didn't go back to that thread again. I used my new found expertise to avoid that subject.

Well, there is a long story behind all what you saw, some pictures were deleted somehow.
The house took me 3.5 years to build mostly by me not counting permitting, design, excavation, etc.
Some of the amp components go back to the 80s, the beginning of the Sure Brother's Dolby processor, and since they still work rather nicely, I use it. Not into selling and buying, etc. Also use the amp section of an old faithful Onkyo 939 when I upgraded to the new audio codes.
I use 6 EQs, 2 digital Behringers(sub and center), 2 Audio controls for left and right and another 2 ch Audio Control for the back. I built those enclosures on the ceiling, of course.
I think the picture still shows 2 center speakers. I built them even before the Sure came on scene. Walnut ply. Those are replace by a JBL 6332. Doesn't look as good as the old ones but they do sound good. And, it fits right under the screen, tilted up a bit.
Yes, my reputation preceded me when I came aboard here from a couple of previous web sites mixing it up with the gullible ones.
If you want more info, send me a private message.

 

[shadyJ]

I know that Harman and Toole were involved involved in developing the CEA-2034 standards, and of course that is no surprise. If you want to know what research is used to develop these standards, you have to look in the references section of these official published standard.

 

[Diesel57]

Perception is and can be the opinion of the individual...while everyone here is right and no one is wrong is why this is a healthy place to be, Respect is a common denominator here and I enjoy the perception and the meetings of the minds...hey guys, what I read didn't produce sound until my brain processed it...and it all sounds good...Cheers

 

[TheWarrior]

The protocol described in the standard is a bit demanding. I would consider it a major project just to be able to meet the standard. If you can do it just for your DIY projects, you are quite the completist. I don't even think many speaker manufacturers would bother strictly adhering to the standard because of the time and detail involved. I have a review coming out that actually has the full suite of curves you mentioned, direct axis, listening window, sound power, sound power index, etc. As far as I know, it will be the first review to do that. But even the measuring I do does not fully adhere to the CEA-2034 protocol, although the graphs and measurements will be accurate. Good luck with your project, and please let me know how it goes!

Interesting to hear your more practiced thoughts. I felt the standard was very straightforward, and more time would be spent inputing formula's to Excel than actually measuring. I look forward to seeing your review! I definitely enjoyed what you produced for the Revel M16! Will reach out when I get closer to testing for you thoughts.

One idea I picked up after visiting Harman's Research lab in Northridge CA was to use a 90deg arc with indicated mic positions that might help speed things up. Granted, they had a mic for every 10deg increment, but even if you only had one or two, you could quickly reposition the mic and just flip the speaker around.

My motivation for putting in the work is to basically declare: If some jackass from GA can pull this off, why can't the industry? If the industry wants to maintain the shroud of mystery around sound reproduction, then I simply do not want to continue to support the industry. I'd rather build my own speakers, and this standard allows me to confirm the quality of my work.

 

[shadyJ]

One idea I picked up after visiting Harman's Research lab in Northridge CA was to use a 90deg arc with indicated mic positions that might help speed things up. Granted, they had a mic for every 10deg increment, but even if you only had one or two, you could quickly reposition the mic and just flip the speaker around.

The process of measuring does not take too long and certainly doesn't warrant the creation of that arc rig at Harman. Setup takes longer than measurement, at least for me.

My motivation for putting in the work is to basically declare: If some jackass from GA can pull this off, why can't the industry? If the industry wants to maintain the shroud of mystery around sound reproduction, then I simply do not want to continue to support the industry. I'd rather build my own speakers, and this standard allows me to confirm the quality of my work.

I think you are lumping too much into 'the industry'. It is a wide array of manufacturers making speakers for many different applications. Some of them eschew this sort of objectivity but some of them embrace it. Anyway, your mission is a noble one.

 

[TheWarrior]

The process of measuring does not take too long and certainly doesn't warrant the creation of that arc rig at Harman. Setup takes longer than measurement, at least for me.

I think you are lumping too much into 'the industry'. It is a wide array of manufacturers making speakers for many different applications. Some of them eschew this sort of objectivity but some of them embrace it. Anyway, your mission is a noble one.

Aww... I was looking forward to routing that arc...

Seems like it would be simpler to have the speaker sky-facing (or rotated to its side), with the arc over the top as opposed to having to move the apparatus every increment. Thoughts? (ignoring the labor to produce said arc)

You are right, I am lumping everyone in to the negative-column. But I also feel that until this mature industry embraces the science and gets everyone on the same page, they deserve it. Angry consumer, much? You betcha!

 

[shadyJ]

Aww... I was looking forward to routing that arc...

Seems like it would be simpler to have the speaker sky-facing (or rotated to its side), with the arc over the top as opposed to having to move the apparatus every increment. Thoughts? (ignoring the labor to produce said arc)

I would say moving the apparatus every 10 degree increment is easier than building a usable arc, but I didn't really consider building an arc so maybe that is an easier approach. As I mentioned, the time consuming thing for me is setting up the speaker and microphone just right, with the mic the right distance and level and the speaker on reference axis. Once everything is setup precisely the actual measuring is a breeze.

 

[TheWarrior]

I would say moving the apparatus every 10 degree increment is easier than building a usable arc, but I didn't really consider building an arc so maybe that is an easier approach. As I mentioned, the time consuming thing for me is setting up the speaker and microphone just right, with the mic the right distance and level and the speaker on reference axis. Once everything is setup precisely the actual measuring is a breeze.

Well I'll be sure to reach out when I get to it, thanks!

 

[HTfreak2004]

Assuming the exact same conditions are present when you sit and listen to your setup ie. same amount of background noise, same seat, same source material, and listening alone then from a cause and effect stand point the system under those conditions set at the same listening levels as the last session is performing equally. Perception has nothing to do with an actual measurable system output level that can be locked to reproduced day after day the same performance at the same quality. Yes emotional state does influence experience only because it makes sense for the source material to change according to one's emotional state. Why would you try to watch a horror movie if you were just at a fatal accident for 6 hours or listen to music which glorifies drug and alcohol references after your best friend just died from a high drunk driver? Those may be extreme examples but everyday listening is far from circumstantial listening which makes you much more of critical critic than the everyday music you prefer under more normal less circumstantial listening. Driving in the car the same song is played over six stations twice an hour. Maybe you can hear it twice but usually it gets annoying after that until the next day. It loses the meaning of the moment. The same can be said when someone calls you three weeks after you last spoke and life has moved on for you since the last call. Life moves on since you listened to the music or watched the movie last. Unless you want life to stay the same flavour for ever? Change is a constant we all must face and listening doesn't escape that either. It may take awhile to notice the little difference in the source materials as well. A bass drum becomes more pleasurable when your relaxed but becomes more harsh if your stiff and tense from a bad day. Or maybe you didn't appreciate the bass drum one day as you were more interested in the high frequencies and so you blocked out emphasis on the bass drum as your focus was on high frequencies. Listen to something 10 times only to hear it the first time!


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[HTfreak2004]

This Forum is are for sharing experiences regarding audio. If you are interested in talking to me regarding audio I'm in. But if your going to read a post then be condescending your in the wrong forum.


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[Bucknekked]

This Forum is are for sharing experiences regarding audio. If you are interested in talking to me regarding audio I'm in. But if your going to read a post then be condescending your in the wrong forum.


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My apologies.

 

[HTfreak2004]

No worries. Surprisingly to many ppl are taking pokes at ppl for sharing. I'm not interested in taking shots.


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