Hsu??

[ParadigmDawg]

You know I am really kind of sick and tired of people saying their subs go down to 10hz or 15hz.....whatever, your freaking ears can't hear below 25 hz and that is super hearing people.I have read so much and also been involved in the live/studio world for 25 years now.I have done my own tests and quite a few others as well.The sub we are discussing here is a great sub for the money and will do you right in a small to medium sized room.There are only so many variables for low end pressurization in any given room.PEOPLE..... Your ears can't hear the 15hz stuff its only feeling and really, you can't feel 10hz although many idiots will swear they do.Its impossible for the human ear to pick up those frequency's,but some people will swear they can hear that low.I have been nominated for several grammy"s and have had 3 platinum discs released during my time as an audio engineer.This hz thing is BALONEY!!!!! Sorry I have had a bad day and am sick of overinformed toolbags making bogus claims and untrue statements.PLEASE ,this is a site for "truth"in audio so lets act like it.Go ahead, read, google,explore, but realize that there are many lies and snake oil in this industry and some of us actually know what we are saying to be true.Sorry for the rant and to answer the OP's question :great sub for the cost........
Also I will not talk about any of my nominations or awards here or on any site.I have no need to prove anything I just believe in truth in audio which is why people like Gene and Tom and Clint have my respect.



Thanks have a good night...........Pics of another Europe tour to come......

My subs go down to 10hz or 15hz.....

 

[sholling]

My subs go down to 10hz or 15hz.....

So do most of mine. Hsu includes that nifty demo disc with organ passages that you feel more than hear. Pretty cool stuff.

 

[Seth=L]

You know I am really kind of sick and tired of people saying their subs go down to 10hz or 15hz.....whatever, your freaking ears can't hear below 25 hz and that is super hearing people.I have read so much and also been involved in the live/studio world for 25 years now.I have done my own tests and quite a few others as well.The sub we are discussing here is a great sub for the money and will do you right in a small to medium sized room.There are only so many variables for low end pressurization in any given room.PEOPLE..... Your ears can't hear the 15hz stuff its only feeling and really, you can't feel 10hz although many idiots will swear they do.Its impossible for the human ear to pick up those frequency's,but some people will swear they can hear that low.I have been nominated for several grammy"s and have had 3 platinum discs released during my time as an audio engineer.This hz thing is BALONEY!!!!! Sorry I have had a bad day and am sick of overinformed toolbags making bogus claims and untrue statements.PLEASE ,this is a site for "truth"in audio so lets act like it.Go ahead, read, google,explore, but realize that there are many lies and snake oil in this industry and some of us actually know what we are saying to be true.Sorry for the rant and to answer the OP's question :great sub for the cost........
Also I will not talk about any of my nominations or awards here or on any site.I have no need to prove anything I just believe in truth in audio which is why people like Gene and Tom and Clint have my respect.



Thanks have a good night...........Pics of another Europe tour to come......

You know what Jamie, nothing nearly as specific was said in this thread until you barged in with this completely uncalled for post which will escalate into derailment of this thread. YIOF is looking for a subwoofer recommendation, not to be "schooled" by the experts. I understand you had a hard day, but that's no reason to just have a conniption just because yepimonfire started a thread (please tell me I'm wrong and that's not why you posted).

Also, there's absolutely NO reason to through around your Grammy nominations and platinum records. The mere fact that you mention them means you believe this somehow makes you special and that your opinion counts for more than someone else's. If you don't want to discuss your Grammy nominations and your platinum records, then I suggest you not bring them up. That's almost like saying "I've got a secret, but I'm not telling, nahner nahner nahner".

I don't like the feeling of telling you off about this because I like you Jamie and you make excellent contributions to the forum. However you develop opinions and solidify them too easily of other members like yepimonfire.

With all that said, Jamie is probably right about what bass frequencies can be heard and felt. I've felt as low as 18 Hz for sure, possibly lower. I can't hear much below 25 Hz but I can sure feel it. I can't say if I could feel 10 Hz or not, I don't have access to anything that would go that low. My opinion is this though, as long as the room can be pressurized, even to the lowest frequency, it should be felt. The subwoofer that looks like a fan supposedly goes down to 1 Hz, so I'd ask those guy if they can feel it.

http://www.tc26.ashraeregion7.org/pastprograms/criteria/vibration-criteria.pdf

This study suggests that at high output frequencies under 20 Hz are readily felt and not heard, and high output scenarios would include home theater since no one watches Iron Man at 50 dB.

I do think that people confuse hearing low frequencies as feeling pressure in their ears, which is not a reception of sound, it is a feeling of pressure.

 

[jamie2112]

Yeah I was beer'd up and ,well yep your right.....thanks

 

[bandphan]

I love the need for reference level spl @ output below 20hz for a budget sub Just note the PB12 from SVS on output below 20hz, while impressive, its not over 100dbs

HSU VTF-3 m3 max output

As been mentioned before the 32-60hz seems to be more important than a 100db below 20hz. The epik empire was measured @89db @2m ground plane which is very acceptable. anything above 85dbs is usable, but not peak reference. .................... waits for warp to smile

 

[Seth=L]

I'd like to see what the A2-300 can do.

 

[Matt34]

whoa calm down buddy. younger people can hear down to 15hz, i can, sure the threshold is much higher but i can still hear it. and tbh, the frequencies you "feel" are higher, like running test tones ive noticed 40hz, and 60hz are the ones that shake your body, ive never "felt" 15hz. imo no sub needs to go down below 18hz. but there are fundamentals that "modulate" (maybe the wrong word) the higher frequencies, like a helicopter has an 11hz fundamental. and i am sorry you had a bad day, hopefully things get better.

....but do you know if you're hearing fundamentals or harmonics? We can hear just about any frequency, but our sensitivity decreases as frequency decreases, so to hear really low frequencies the SPL have to be much higher.

When you say your hear down to 16 hz, what may actually be happening is you're feeling 16 Hz, but actually hearing the second harmonic at 32 Hz.

To answer your original question, depending on the size of your room you're more than likely going to need more than one of any sub-$500 sub to hit reference levels at subsonic frequencies. It took two two HSU VTF-3 in a a very small 15x12 sealed room in max output mode to do WOTW justice...and even then I could make them "fart" if I wanted to.

 

[shadyJ]

....but do you know if you're hearing fundamentals or harmonics? We can hear just about any frequency, but our sensitivity decreases as frequency decreases, so to hear really low frequencies the SPL have to be much higher.

When you say your hear down to 16 hz, what may actually be happening is you're feeling 16 Hz, but actually hearing the second harmonic at 32 Hz.

To answer your original question, depending on the size of your room you're more than likely going to need more than one of any sub-$500 sub to hit reference levels at subsonic frequencies. It took two two HSU VTF-3 in a a very small 15x12 sealed room in max output mode to do WOTW justice...and even then I could make them "fart" if I wanted to.

There's actually a real difference in the tuning modes for the VTF3 for WotW, try a comparison. You are definitely not hearing everything in that scene in max output mode, try it and you'll see. Mostly though, there's no reason to run them in max extension mode, there are so few movies that take advantage of anything below 25 hertz. BTW, I have not been able to make my VTF3s chuff at all, not even in max extension mode, I don't know how you can do this in max output mode.

 

[GranteedEV]

I have no real say on the matter as far as 15hz being audible but

There's actually a real difference in the tuning modes for the VTF3 for WotW, try a comparison. You are definitely not hearing everything in that scene in max output mode, try it and you'll see. Mostly though, there's no reason to run them in max extension mode, there are so few movies that take advantage of anything below 25 hertz. BTW, I have not been able to make my VTF3s chuff at all, not even in max extension mode, I don't know how you can do this in max output mode.

You misinterpreted what he was saying. He's saying that when a subwoofer tries to reproduce a subsonic frequency beyond its linearity, stray 2nd and 3rd etc order harmonics are created. We hear the distortion harmonics and confuse them with the actual frequency because we're at the same time feeling the actual frequency.

That's possibly why i've seen people point out how an 18" low tuned ported sub sounds so different (less audible, more tactile) from, even say, a PB13U. On paper, 13hz should be 13hz. But if you've got less distortion, you've got a different sound.

 

[KEW]

I can't say if I could feel 10 Hz or not, I don't have access to anything that would go that low. My opinion is this though, as long as the room can be pressurized, even to the lowest frequency, it should be felt. The subwoofer that looks like a fan supposedly goes down to 1 Hz, so I'd ask those guy if they can feel it.

I think you would feel it, but not sure you would really want to at high SPL!

http://www.forteantimes.com/features/articles/256/sonic_weapons.html

 

[bandphan]

I have not been able to make my VTF3s chuff at all, not even in max extension mode, I don't know how you can do this in max output mode.

I don't think he was referring to port noise I know several members that have or have had 2 in a dedicated room and they were very impressive, but not below say below 18hz. There are only a handful of subs that do the 10-15hz (commercially) that leave you gasping for air.

 

[shadyJ]

I don't think he was referring to port noise I know several members that have or have had 2 in a dedicated room and they were very impressive, but not below say below 18hz. There are only a handful of subs that do the 10-15hz (commercially) that leave you gasping for air.

Mine are pretty solid until 16 hertz, below that they really start to struggle. I don't mind though, I don't really care about anything under 16 hertz. Below 15 hz performance goal is not much more than a gimmick, as there is very little content out there with those frequencies in it. I know guys out there who have that or are after that. I hope their houses can handle that, because you have to play back those kind of frequencies extremely loud to sense anything at all. My next door neighbors house had a water pipe break after some low frequencies noises from nearby construction vibrated their plumbing so violently that it eventually fractured. Do yourself a favor if you are bass crazy, playback some low frequency sweeps on your subs, and go around and listen for vibration on various parts of your houses plumbing. You might be surprised at what you hear, I know I was!

 

[Matt34]

There's actually a real difference in the tuning modes for the VTF3 for WotW, try a comparison. You are definitely not hearing everything in that scene in max output mode, try it and you'll see. Mostly though, there's no reason to run them in max extension mode, there are so few movies that take advantage of anything below 25 hertz. BTW, I have not been able to make my VTF3s chuff at all, not even in max extension mode, I don't know how you can do this in max output mode.

I wish I could do some more testing but I sold both of them awhile ago. Pete PM'd me at AVS forums(sorry I haven't responded) with the same concerns. Maybe something else was going on but I know I had them set up correctly for max-output because it was driving me crazy for awhile trying to eliminated the offensive noise.

OTOH, my dual Kappas never exhibited any fluttering or chuffing during the same scene (emerging from under the street). I have a youtube video of them...should have done one for the HSU's as well.

Edit: I still would love to have a dual-drive ULS-15 setup.

 

[sholling]

Edit: I still would love to have a dual-drive ULS-15 setup.

I have a single in my bedroom and it's a pretty amazing sub for my 3000cuft room. Now if only I could afford a quad for the family room.

 

[j_garcia]

You know I am really kind of sick and tired of people saying their subs go down to 10hz or 15hz.....whatever, your freaking ears can't hear below 25 hz and that is super hearing people.I have read so much and also been involved in the live/studio world for 25 years now.I have done my own tests and quite a few others as well.The sub we are discussing here is a great sub for the money and will do you right in a small to medium sized room.There are only so many variables for low end pressurization in any given room.PEOPLE..... Your ears can't hear the 15hz stuff its only feeling and really, you can't feel 10hz although many idiots will swear they do.Its impossible for the human ear to pick up those frequency's,but some people will swear they can hear that low.I have been nominated for several grammy"s and have had 3 platinum discs released during my time as an audio engineer.This hz thing is BALONEY!!!!! Sorry I have had a bad day and am sick of overinformed toolbags making bogus claims and untrue statements.PLEASE ,this is a site for "truth"in audio so lets act like it.Go ahead, read, google,explore, but realize that there are many lies and snake oil in this industry and some of us actually know what we are saying to be true.Sorry for the rant and to answer the OP's question :great sub for the cost........
Also I will not talk about any of my nominations or awards here or on any site.I have no need to prove anything I just believe in truth in audio which is why people like Gene and Tom and Clint have my respect.



Thanks have a good night...........Pics of another Europe tour to come......

....but do you know if you're hearing fundamentals or harmonics? We can hear just about any frequency, but our sensitivity decreases as frequency decreases, so to hear really low frequencies the SPL have to be much higher.

When you say your hear down to 16 hz, what may actually be happening is you're feeling 16 Hz, but actually hearing the second harmonic at 32 Hz.

To answer your original question, depending on the size of your room you're more than likely going to need more than one of any sub-$500 sub to hit reference levels at subsonic frequencies. It took two two HSU VTF-3 in a a very small 15x12 sealed room in max output mode to do WOTW justice...and even then I could make them "fart" if I wanted to.

What Matt said! If you play a 16hz tone, you can most definitely FEEL it. A 20Hz tone, I can kind of hear it, but mostly things in the room just vibrate and you can definitely feel it. I can still easily hear tones to about 22Hz, and while 25Hz is surprisingly low, it isn't infrasonic yet. I absolutely cannot hear it when playing a 16Hz tone, but you can tell it is playing without question.

To me, I don't need a sub that has crazy performance at 16Hz, but it does need to be good to at least 20Hz. When you have a sub with good output at 20Hz for most purposes, that usually means it is going to dip into the teens in extension. What that all adds up to? There IS a noticeable difference between a sub that is -3dB at 25Hz and one that is -3dB at 20Hz. It doesn't sound like a lot, but as you go lower, that seemingly small drop in frequency requires a pretty decent jump in performance to achieve it.

I haven't really heard something that didn't benefit from a solid 20Hz capable sub.