HSU price is misleading

[1AGOFST]

Wow! That is a BIG room. Any plans to go duals? I just recently purchased a B-stock ULS-15 MK2 and will be ordering another one soon. Congrats on your purchase. Got any pics to share?

Cheers,

Phil

No pics yet....been too busy listening. Now that I have had the chance to hear it and see how big it actually is, my original plan to eventually add a dual sub has been squashed. I just don't have anywhere to put it in our room setup. It is also the reason I don't already have towers.

 

[shadyJ]

While I am not huge fan of some of PSA's marketing/promotional style, even ShadyJ will admit that ex-SVS top-engineer could muster a decent sub or two
Plus they seem to stop comparing 15v to other vendors subs, which is big plus in my book.
New 15V is below sweet $1k price point, full free ship/return, made in usa and full 5 year warranty.
It's measurement doesn't suck either.
http://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/15v

SVS's best sub is the PB13 Ultra and that wasn't engineered by anyone at PSA. As for their engineering skills, they couldn't manage to get a sub with two supposedly high-excursion 15"s, more amplifier power, and more enclosure space to match Rythmik's FV15HP. How did that get screwed up? I doubt the V15 is anything to get excited about.

 

[KEW]

SVS's best sub is the PB13 Ultra and that wasn't engineered by anyone at PSA. As for their engineering skills, they couldn't manage to get a sub with two supposedly high-excursion 15"s, more amplifier power, and more enclosure space to match Rythmik's FV15HP. How did that get screwed up? I doubt the V15 is anything to get excited about.

What you refer to as SVS's "best sub" cost $2000, has more enclosure space, more amplifier power, but still doesn't match Rythmik's $1200 FV15HP. How did they screw that up?

Unlike you and PSA, I don't mean to bash SVS, I am making a point that you can cherry-pick subs to compare and say whatever you want.

Regarding the dual 15" PSA sub you are talking about, Josh Ricci gave the following conclusion:

The CEA-2010 short term burst results for the XV-30Fse indicate a powerful system as expected. Down in the 10-12.5Hz bands it would not produce a result with acceptable distortion or much output to speak of which is as expected as this is way below the tuning of the port. At 16Hz a passing result of 101.5dB was produced which is respectable. At 20Hz the XV-30Fse is finally in its wheelhouse and bangs out a powerful 109.4dB at 20Hz. By the 40Hz band the output capability has risen to 116dB and from 50-125Hz the XV-30Fse is capable of 120dB levels which is quite powerful indeed. This overall CEA-2010 performance puts the XV-30Fse in the company of the most powerful commercial systems that have been tested to date.

That seems an impressive statement for a $1500 subwoofer

To address the engineering competence of PSA's Tom V., lets look to Ricci:

The XS-15SE offers a lot of bang for the dollar. The driver is a high quality piece in this price range and the enclosure and finish is heavy duty. The engineering and DSP settings also seem to be well applied and thought out. It is one of the few, sealed design, powered subwoofers offered for under $1000 that is both engineered well and has enough headroom for a decent sized room. Based on the measurements and performance metrics alone it compares quite well to other commercial sealed subwoofers at 2x to 3x the price.

I don't know what the bad blood is between you and PSA that prompts you to bash them on an on-going basis. I have not seen any business practices to warrant your rancor: They actually manufacture their subs in USA, one of the owners, Tom V. is very likely who you talk to when you call (or use the website chat service) and provides expert advice, their policies (the topic of the OP) are great - with free shipping, 30 day trial with free return shipping, etc.

Personally, I am glad they are in the game.
The dual PSA XS15se's I bought for $1350/pr match my $2300/pr dual Rythmik E15HP's for music (which is what I bought them for). The E15HP does dig deeper, but I don't want to pay for LFE which I will never appreciate in my bedroom system! The PSA does fine for HT but has the limits you would expect from a well designed sealed sub at it's price. The servo of the Rythmik seems to allow it an inordinate amount of extension for a sealed system!

 

[herbu]

its strange how the Rhythmik never really gets mentioned here or at AVS along with the usual suspects we all know.

Oh, Grasshopper... I beg to differ. Rythmik has quite a following and fan base here. And has for a while. It was this forum that pointed me to the FV15HP a couple years ago.

I also have a big room, and the HP is a beast!!! In fact, I had to move it farther away from my wife's chair because it ruptured her spleen... twice. (Well... OK... The first time was when I had her carry it in the house from the delivery truck.)

The point is, don't overlook Rythmik. Great products, great support and a good price.

 

[Basshead81]

Hsu is still one of the best, if not the best, values in subwoofers at the moment, even after shipping, tax, and extended warranty.

I disagree but to each is own.

 

[Basshead81]

SVS's best sub is the PB13 Ultra and that wasn't engineered by anyone at PSA. As for their engineering skills, they couldn't manage to get a sub with two supposedly high-excursion 15"s, more amplifier power, and more enclosure space to match Rythmik's FV15HP. How did that get screwed up? I doubt the V15 is anything to get excited about.

No wonder you were banned from AVS...I see you still suffer from trollitis.

 

[Defcon]

Hsu is still one of the best, if not the best, values in subwoofers at the moment, even after shipping, tax, and extended warranty. Extremely good designs and performance for the price. I like what Rythmik and Reaction Audio is doing at the $1k price point too. I would not say Hsu pricing is misleading. With the exception of extended warranty, which isn't a big deal, its all right there on the product page.

The price IMO is misleading because that's what gets mentioned in most reviews. e.g.

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/hsu-research-vtf-15h-mk2-and-vtf-3-mk5-hp-subwoofer-reviews
http://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/speaker/subwoofers/hsu-research-vtf-3-mk5-hp-powered-subwoofer-review/

However they clearly state it on their website so its not a big issue.

You may think the 2yr warranty on amp, the component most likely to go bad, is ok, but I'd say its not, and when other companies offer a full 5yr warranty, it is a big deal. And its a much older design. BASH vs newer digital amps isn't really a matter of doubt.

Rhythmik has the same issue, only a 2yr warranty on the amp. PSA/SVS/RA are all 5yrs on everything.

Everyone is welcome to their own opinions, I'm just trying to state facts.

 

[its phillip]

I don't find it misleading. It's up to the consumer to do their research. The warranty and shipping prices are clearly stated on HSU's website. I would of course love if they had longer warranties and free shipping/trial policies like some of the other vendors. However, their lack of the above doesn't mean their prices are misleading.

 

[shadyJ]

What you refer to as SVS's "best sub" cost $2000, has more enclosure space, more amplifier power, but still doesn't match Rythmik's $1200 FV15HP. How did they screw that up?

Unlike you and PSA, I don't mean to bash SVS, I am making a point that you can cherry-pick subs to compare and say whatever you want.

Regarding the dual 15" PSA sub you are talking about, Josh Ricci gave the following conclusion:

That seems an impressive statement for a $1500 subwoofer

To address the engineering competence of PSA's Tom V., lets look to Ricci:


I don't know what the bad blood is between you and PSA that prompts you to bash them on an on-going basis. I have not seen any business practices to warrant your rancor: They actually manufacture their subs in USA, one of the owners, Tom V. is very likely who you talk to when you call (or use the website chat service) and provides expert advice, their policies (the topic of the OP) are great - with free shipping, 30 day trial with free return shipping, etc.

Personally, I am glad they are in the game.
The dual PSA XS15se's I bought for $1350/pr match my $2300/pr dual Rythmik E15HP's for music (which is what I bought them for). The E15HP does dig deeper, but I don't want to pay for LFE which I will never appreciate in my bedroom system! The PSA does fine for HT but has the limits you would expect from a well designed sealed sub at it's price. The servo of the Rythmik seems to allow it an inordinate amount of extension for a sealed system!

My point is not to give PSA too much credit. There is no special engineering in their designs that I see. As for cherry-picking subs, I wasn't the first to compare those subs; PSA did, which is why I use that example, except they claimed the XV30 to actually have higher performance than the FV15HP, when the third-party measurements show otherwise. With respect to Ricci's praise for the XV15's performance, look at many of the commercial subs he measured prior to that point, and also he was commenting on overall CEA performance, which is not a big deal when all you have is lots of upper bass. Upper bass is easy to get, which is why I say I see no special engineering from PSA, and what is worse, they use upper bass CEA measurements to mislead people about the performance of their products.

 

[shadyJ]

No wonder you were banned from AVS...I see you still suffer from trollitis.

You have to love how all the infractions and bans came shortly after PSA became a sponsor of AVSforums, but nothing for years before that. One has to wonder if there is a connection between the two. Also curious is how one gets banned even when never engaging in personal attacks, never insulting anyone, but simply making technical criticisms backed by facts and data. But of course, these technical criticisms are met with personal insults, much like this post of yours, instead of reasoned discussion, and those who can only argue using personal attacks are still posting there while I am not.

 

[Defcon]

shadyJ I don't really care about forum politics, only technical data and facts matter.

I asked earlier in this thread but perhaps you missed it - what is your opinion on the SVS PB-2000, and specifically for listening at below reference levels?

At lower volume, is there even an audible difference between the lower and higher end subs? Most of these companies, the cheaper model has same or +/-2hz extension compared to higher priced model, but has less SPL - does it matter?

SVS also seems to have 2 unique features no one else has - they seem to DSP their subs for a flat FR. Their lower (16-31) CEA numbers are just as good as other subs, but the mid bass ones are weaker and that has to be due to DSP. The other thing is their built in limiter to prevent damage which also acts as a filter and thus may not go as low.

 

[shadyJ]

shadyJ I don't really care about forum politics, only technical data and facts matter.

I asked earlier in this thread but perhaps you missed it - what is your opinion on the SVS PB-2000, and specifically for listening at below reference levels?

At lower volume, is there even an audible difference between the lower and higher end subs? Most of these companies, the cheaper model has same or +/-2hz extension compared to higher priced model, but has less SPL - does it matter?

SVS also seems to have 2 unique features no one else has - they seem to DSP their subs for a flat FR. Their lower (16-31) CEA numbers are just as good as other subs, but the mid bass ones are weaker and that has to be due to DSP. The other thing is their built in limiter to prevent damage which also acts as a filter and thus may not go as low.

I think the SB2000 is likely a very good sub within its limits. If you are not after high SPLs, it should be very good, because it is using an extremely linear driver platform. It should sound like any other low distortion sub at low volumes. It looks to me like SVS aren't using the high pass filter that the SB12 NSD did, or at least not using it as heavily, and that is a good thing. Many of these companies are EQing their subs for a flat response though, SVS is not alone there. I don't think the mid bass is weaker due to the DSP. The DSP limiter should be putting its foot down in deep bass, not mid bass. If the SVS is heard to have weak mid bass, it is only because the sub is very linear; most subs have lots of mid bass but not good deep bass, whereas the SVS subs keep it all on an even keel. What you are describing is a shelf filter, and I wouldn't guess that SVS employs that type on their subs, but that is just my guess.

 

[KEW]

My point is not to give PSA too much credit.

Seriously, do you think anyone can read that post and not see the truth? That is BS!

Your post was a declaration of incompetence, not one of their being average. Rather than "not give PSA too much credit", you worded it to discredit them. There is a obvious difference.

 

[shadyJ]

Seriously, do you think anyone can read that post and not see the truth? That is BS!

Your post was a declaration of incompetence, not one of their being average. Rather than "not give PSA too much credit", you worded it to discredit them. There is a obvious difference.

Look at the post I was initially replying too, you are missing the context of that remark. I don't think PSA's subs are top notch engineering, but I do think there is worse out there.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

My living room is ~1600 cu.ft but there are openings to kitchen and hallway etc so effective area to pressurize is larger, can't really guess how much.

I know I should get the most sub but I am in an apt, so have to consider that and keep my expectations reasonable.

If your room would've been more closed, I'd say go with pb2000 and you'd be a happy camper. BUT for only $150 extra (Including shipping) ULS-15mk2 is imo a better value.
I'd also call them up and see if they could know few more bucks of top - and won't be surprised of they knock $50 (or so) off.
If you don't mind a pit of glueing and painting PE's Ultramax 15 flatpacks are great deal. Paired with inexpensive pro amp and you got a kick ass sub

 

[KEW]

Look at the post I was initially replying too, you are missing the context of that remark.

... even ShadyJ will admit that ex-SVS top-engineer could muster a decent sub or two

Superlatives like "muster" and "decent" demand intervention!

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Superlatives like "muster" and "decent" demand intervention!

I favor superlatives over superlaxatives

 

[Defcon]

If your room would've been more closed, I'd say go with pb2000 and you'd be a happy camper. BUT for only $150 extra (Including shipping) ULS-15mk2 is imo a better value.
I'd also call them up and see if they could know few more bucks of top - and won't be surprised of they knock $50 (or so) off.
If you don't mind a pit of glueing and painting PE's Ultramax 15 flatpacks are great deal. Paired with inexpensive pro amp and you got a kick ass sub

I was considering a UM18 flatack bundle + iNuke3000 amp for ~$750 but its out of stock. From what I've read and looking at data-bass numbers it beats commercial subs costing 2x or more.

I don't really see the point of a ULS-15MK2 at $779 when the VTF3-MK5 is $799, only 20 more for a much more powerful sub which can also be run in fully sealed mode. Am I missing something? In any case for me there's tax added so Hsu seems to be out of the equation.

 

[KEW]

I was considering a UM18 flatack bundle + iNuke3000 amp for ~$750 but its out of stock. From what I've read and looking at data-bass numbers it beats commercial subs costing 2x or more.

I don't really see the point of a ULS-15MK2 at $779 when the VTF3-MK5 is $799, only 20 more for a much more powerful sub which can also be run in fully sealed mode. Am I missing something? In any case for me there's tax added so Hsu seems to be out of the equation.

Plugging a ported sub does not a sealed sub make.
A sealed sub like the ULS 15 is designed from the ground up to be sealed and will have a driver optimized for use in a sealed enclosure. The VTF3 is designed to be a ported sub and the plugs are added to market as both ported and "sealed". I would maintain that most people who get a VTF3 and end up preferring the " sealed" option would likely be happier with the ULS 15.
The other consideration is size of the sub. The vtf3 is sized to be a ported sub. Traditionally, the smaller size of a sealed sub is to support a tight acoustic suspension. I don't know if this is still the case with modern drivers.