WorldLeader

WorldLeader

Full Audioholic
I'm getting closer... almost ready to pull the trigger!*

Ok, here is a semi-final draft of my equipment list, my room is ~4500 cu. ft. 50/50 music/movies.

Projector: Panasonic PT-AX100U - $1999

Screen: 120" manual pulldown - $400

Cables: Misc. - $100

Main Speakers: Magnepan MMGW (pair) $290

Center Speaker: Magnepan MMGC $290

Surround Speakers: " MMGW (pair) $290

Receiver: Yamaha RX-V659 - $330

Subwoofer: 4 x 18" Drivers - $220 (IB, already designed)

Subwoofer Amp: Behringer EP2500 - $250

DVD Player: Oppo DV-970HD - $149


Total - $4318 w/out PJ - $2319

How does it look? Have I done well for starting from scratch? I am trying to keep visual impact to a minimum, so the planar speakers sound good. I already have things like a CD player and iPod, as well as some home networking in place. Also, am I overspending? I'm on a fairly tight budget and I don't want to be frivolous.

Thanks!


*When I finish my other projects
 
jaxvon

jaxvon

Audioholic Ninja
I see one main problem: speaker impedance. The Magnepans have a 5 ohm nominal impedance. Most receivers, especially the lower-price models as you (and I) have are rated for a minimum of 6 ohms. Put plainly, these speakers will demand too much current from the amplifier and could cause shut downs, if not damage. This is one of the crappy things about Maggies, they need outboard amplifiers or very stout receivers that can handle low impedances (which are nonexistent in the A/V world). Magnepans are known for their insane power needs. A thousand watts per speaker isn't outrageous for their higher end models (3.6QR and 20.1).

I have never heard the MMGW speakers, so I cannot express an opinion of their sound. However, given your budget, I think that you might be better served by standard dynamic (read: cone) speakers that offer a more managable impedance, greater frequency range, and higher sensitivity. While I am not an Axiom fanboy, you might want to consider their on-wall speakers. These speakers offer a wider dispersion and a more manageable impedance than the Maggies. However, they also come with a higher pricetag. You might also want to check out the offerings from companies like Definitive Technology, as I know they offer some highly-rated on-wall speakers as well.

Other concerns:

  • Subwoofer Budget
  • Projector Budget

The cost of $220 seems very low for four 18" subwoofer drivers. This price leads me to believe that you have selected sub-par drivers for the project. In an IB setup you want to select drivers that can handle a lot of power, have high excursion, and have a low resonant frequency. I know of no 18" subwoofer driver that costs $55 that has good power handling, high excursion, low distortion, and a low resonant frequency. If you would like to make a high quality IB setup, I suggest that you opt for higher quality drivers (again, assuming from the price). This might mean that you cannot build the IB setup until a later date. In my experience, it is better to wait and buy something that is high quality the first time rather than spend more money playing the upgrade game. Obviously you will be driven to upgrade at some point, but you will get much more satisfaction from your system if you opt for higher quality components at the start. I understand that you are working with a limited budget (much nicer than mine, still). However, I think that you can achieve higher quality sound given your budget some adjustment of the allocation of monies. That brings me to my next item of critique, the projector budget.

The projector budget seems, to me, a bit out of proportion. If you are a videophile much more than an audio nut then perhaps the investment is justified. For me though, I would divert some funds from the projector towards improving things on the audio end. How much is acceptable is your call, but I think that you can sacrifice very little in the video realm and wind up with audibly better performance on the audio end of things.

Additionally, I think that you might wish to opt for a different subwoofer setup, especially if you are using "satellite" type speakers all around where the response is limited to 60-80Hz. An IB sub is best suited for the bass that is more felt than heard, that from about 30-35Hz on down. Indeed, the main reason that many people would install an IB subwoofer (myself included) would be to extend their system's response into the subsonic range. With a properly implemented IB system, 10Hz is easily attainable. What I'm trying to get at through all of this rambling is that you should be looking at subwoofers that are placed in the room. If you still want the IB sub to get ultra-low response, you can then use the attractive, compact, and low cost subwoofers on the market to fill the gap between your 5 speakers and the IB subwoofer. Ideally this implementation would use stereo subwoofers placed in the front soundstage. If you were to use a ported subwoofer with a relatively high tuning frequency, such as the Hsu STF-1 that is tuned to around 32Hz, you can get away with not using a crossover in the signal chain and simply use some EQ on the IB unit to achieve flat response and proper integration.

There are a multitude of possibilities out there, and they only increase in number as your budget does. I hope this has been at least somewhat helpful in your selection process. This process is never easy. By attacking the situation with a critical mind, ear, and eye, you will be able to build a high-performance, high-value system that should satisfy you for years to come.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
I would follow up with two items...

The Optoma HD70, if you can find a way to make it work in your room, should deliver excellent HD performance in a front projection setup for half the price of what you have listed for the AX100. This is more in line with the overall setup of the room and while it may require some additional work to get it positioned properly, it is over $1,000 that is saved for that work. If you are on a budget, that can make all the difference in the world.

Secondly: The screen. $400 is way to much to spend on a manual roll up screen. Roll-up screens, over time, will develop waves in the material. I have seen over 100 manual roll up screens and not ONE of them has avoided having some waves in the fabric. Big screens, little screens, expensive screens, cheap screens - doesn't matter. Every one has waves. So, unless there is something super special about the screen you are looking at, you are paying AT LEAST $300 to much for that screen! eBay can deliver to you a perfectly acceptable screen for about a hundred bucks quite easily.

Of course, the follow up is, that a proper theater should never use a roll up screen. Unless there is fear of damaging it, a fixed on wall screen is the absolute best way to go. If the screen must roll up, then tab tensioned is the next best way to go. The jump in cash to tab tensioned will put it at over $1,000 typically and for a fixed on wall screen it will be upwards of about $700.

I would also believe that your cables budget is ridiculously low, even if shopping at http://www.monoprice.com as you will need HDMI to the projector, a good amount of speaker wire, and interconnects.

Finally - I would upgrade the DVD player to the better Oppo or the Panny S97 as both have the higher specifications that will deliver a sharper image with better overall quality for a large front projection setup.
 
WorldLeader

WorldLeader

Full Audioholic
Personally I would like to have some cone speakers, but then the problem becomes visibility and durability. There still are small children who will be in the room, so some nice floor-standing speakers might not hold up too well. The Maggies that we auditioned were pretty nice sounding, but again there was limited bass handling. Ideally, I would stick a pair of 10" woofers into the system to fill the gap between the anemic 100Hz cutoff of the MMGWs and the IB system, but I'm not sure how to make that work.

As for the drivers, I have been doing a lot of research and came across these Canadian drivers from Mach 5 Audio. Some of the people who tested it were very impressed with how it performed IB wise for the money. $52 US, but shipping is quite a bit. If I cut down my budget I would go for some drivers from Soundsplinter (TC-Sounds)

The PJ is also an issue, since I need some pretty good light output. I really want to go with the Optoma HD70, but the X100 seems like the PJ to beat, with great light output. Realistically I think the visual part of my system needs some humbling, since I really don't watch TV or movies religiously like some people. :) The screen was just a padded guess, and I figured that there were some out there that would work fine for $100. I need the screen to roll up because of a window that will be covered by the screen. It would be weird to permanently cover the window with a screen.

Power handling is the real issue, since I know the Yamaha can't drive such power-hungry speakers. I would like some separates, but they are all much more expensive. I know AV123 has that $1000 separate thing, so maybe that would work (but kill my budget)
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
Well, I think you have 2 options.

Wait and save,

Or

Move to cone speakers, with a totally different subwoofer setup. That should free up some funds for the video side of things.

What are the exact dimensions of the room?

SheepStar
 
WorldLeader

WorldLeader

Full Audioholic
Here are a few mockups to look at, but basically the room is a 20x20 square with a peaked roof at 18'





The IB would be under the floor with an outlet under the screen.
 
J

JustEd

Enthusiast
Upgrade the receiver

I liked Yamaha's until they got into surround sound. A cheap receiver can really have a shallow fatiguing sound when listening to some types of music. It may not matter to you if your musical tastes lean towards modern electronic music. But if you are closely listening to an orchestra, solo vocalist, or stringed insturments like violines, cellos, etc. you will do well to purchase a much much better receiver. The issue is not the surround capabilities, but the ability to supply uncolored sound to the speakers. Cheap IC's as power amplifiers do poorly for the kind of music I care to listen to.
 
WorldLeader

WorldLeader

Full Audioholic
I was also looking at some of the later generation Harman Kardon receivers, since they have some pretty beefy amplifiers. I personally listen to a lot of complex music (electronic, alternative, etc) but I also have a pretty good sized classical music collection. I was more interested in that Yamaha due to its feature list, but my other options include the HK AVR 535.
 
WorldLeader

WorldLeader

Full Audioholic
Change...

OK, I took your considerations into mind, and overhauled my system.

Here is what I came up with:


Cone speakers (on-walls), cheaper PJ, better sub drivers, realistic amp, etc..

Any comments about this?
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
I would still want a bigger receiver, that is just me. You may want to look for a receiver with a more adaptable crossover since the sub won't have one. Look for a receiver that can adjust the crossover frequency in 5 hz incriments.
 
WorldLeader

WorldLeader

Full Audioholic
What receiver would you suggest? I'm not sold on any yet, so I'm open to suggestions. HDMI might be nice since I'm looking at an Oppo later on, and the PJ has an HDMI port. The problem is that it bumps the price considerably. I really think component would be fine, but I heard that almost all DVDs are restricted to SD over component, but can go HD over HDMI.

How does the rest of the system look?
 
jaxvon

jaxvon

Audioholic Ninja
Mr. Leader:

The 18" drivers you selected before were not as bad as I feared. I think that you could get great results with four of them as you planned. However, opting for a more high end driver is always open. :)
 
WorldLeader

WorldLeader

Full Audioholic
The reason I put the FI drivers on my list was because the other are temporarily sold out, but the guy who owns it is expecting more shortly.

He also alluded to having both a 4ohm and 8ohm version available. Would the 4ohm version be better for an IB?
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Leader...

Wanting HDMI does not force you into an expensive receiver to get it.

You can run HDMI directly from your player (DVD) to the projector and get the video quality you want. Then for audio, just run the digital audio from the DVD player into your receiver.

If you have 2 or more HDMI sources, then use an HDMI stand alone switcher. www.monoprice.com has them starting under 30 bucks and a 5 port HDMI switcher w/remote runs about 130 bucks. Don't let HDMI force you into a receiver that is hundreds more than you are prepared to spend at this time.

To your projector run the following cables at the MINIMUM:
1 - HDMI cable
1 - Component cable
1 - Composite cable
1 - Cat-5 cable

If you have good retrofit access to the room, then you can leave some cables out right now.

If you will not have retro access, I would recommend the following as well:
1 - Conduit between 1" and 2" diameter
1 - extra piece of cat-5
1 - SVGA cable to hook up a computer
 

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