How to tell a quality receiver

[Dr. Bob]

I used to think that within a given product line there would be little differences in the electronics of the receivers, just differences in power, number of channels, and "extras." But this article makes it clear that that's not true: even a single step in the Onkyo NR line, from NR535 to NR636, makes a huge difference in the quality of the signal. (Look under "Advanced Testing" at the 5th and 6th graphs.)

Of course, some differences are advertised up front: in Denon, for example, you have to go to X4000 to get Audyssey XT32. (You also have to pay for two additional channels which I don't need and don't want.) But how do I find out at what point in, say, the Denon line I will get the high quality electronics, like in the NR636 (and presumably any higher Onkyo model)? I have only been able to find tests like the one I linked for a few receivers. Does anyone know any resources? Other lines I'm looking at are Marantz SR and Yamaha RX-V and Adventage.

 

[slipperybidness]

I'll browse the article when I get a chance.

The bottom line is to not over-think this too much.

Personally, I would take a mid-level or high-level Denon over ANY Onkyo. I might consider an Integra (the upscale Onkyo brand).

Get a receiver that has:
*Enough power to drive your speakers (or pre-amp outs to add an external amp to accomplish that task).
*The features that you want/need
*Fits your budget
*Is a reasonable fit as compared to the $ you spent on speakers (ie, it is foolish to spend $2K on a receiver and $500 on speakers).

If you insist on "highest quality parts", then the better approach is most likely separate pre/pro and amp combo anyway.

 

[Dr. Bob]

But that's the problem, you see: on paper, the NR535 has all I need. 5.1 and a power upgrade over my current Yamaha, plus Wifi. But it's clear that it will have inferior sound compared to the 636.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

But that's the problem, you see: on paper, the NR535 has all I need. 5.1 and a power upgrade over my current Yamaha, plus Wifi. But it's clear that it will have inferior sound compared to the 636.

I have a problem with your last statement. Even if measurement done correctly, difference in between these would be impossible to hear at typical volume levels

 

[Swerd]

But that's the problem, you see: on paper, the NR535 has all I need. 5.1 and a power upgrade over my current Yamaha, plus Wifi. But it's clear that it will have inferior sound compared to the 636.

Overall, that article isn't bad, but its aimed primarily at the user who isn't convinced that he should buy a receiver instead of a powered sound bar.

It goes on to talk at great length about receiver features. Some are important and some are "bells & whistles" depending on what you need now and may need in the foreseeable future. It talks about performance and multichannel audio analyzers, but no where does it really analyze "inferior or superior" sounds from different receivers. We only have the author's subjective testimony. To be valid and objective on the subject of "sound quality", I would prefer to see blind listening tests done with 25 to 50 listeners. I don't really expect to see that in such an article, but without that, any comments about sound quality are essentially the author's opinion.

That article does say (in paragraph 19 ) something I think is critically important:

We also talked to an audio writer with a degree in electrical engineering who has been studying home audio electronics for many years (he asked not to be named for personal reasons). He said, "The power of the amplifier over the full frequency range (20 Hz to 20 kHz) at low distortion (0.1 percent or less) in continuous operation is the only spec to look for. You can trust the number on the website since it is rare for independent testing to show the product did not achieve spec. On a website you may see specs for 1 kHz at 1 percent. Ignore that and look for the full range spec at a low THD. If you cannot find it take that unit off your list. Also ignore any spec marked dynamic power which is even more useless. You may see a 1 kHz number at a high 1 percent distortion for 6 ohms but that is of no value and can be ignored. You used to see these specs, 4 ohms over the full frequency range at 0.1 percent THD, but marketing forces have changed how power amps are designed now."​

 

[Dr. Bob]

I have a problem with your last statement. Even if measurement done correctly, difference in between these would be impossible to hear at typical volume levels

OK, I re-read the article more carefully and noticed that the sine wave test is done at -90dB, so I agree with you that this would likely be inaudible. Still, it does show a difference in the quality of the electronics within the NR line.

Swerd: Yes, ideally we'd have double blind tests with 25 people or more, but that's not gonna happen. I'd be happy to see some more tests like the ones I linked, for different AVRs at different price levels. No, it's not going to tell you what the AVR sounds like, but it can tell you something about the quality of the electronics.

slipperybidness: You're being a bit self-contradictory when you say that all that matters is power and features, then say you wouldn't buy an Onkyo. Why not, if all that matters is power and features?

 

[Swerd]

For receivers, all that matters is power, features, reputation for reliability, and customer service.

In the past, Onkyo has had a reputation for receivers that run hot, and suffer failures. I don't know whether that reputation was fairly earned, or if it is true today.

 

[slipperybidness]

OK, I re-read the article more carefully and noticed that the sine wave test is done at -90dB, so I agree with you that this would likely be inaudible. Still, it does show a difference in the quality of the electronics within the NR line.

Swerd: Yes, ideally we'd have double blind tests with 25 people or more, but that's not gonna happen. I'd be happy to see some more tests like the ones I linked, for different AVRs at different price levels. No, it's not going to tell you what the AVR sounds like, but it can tell you something about the quality of the electronics.

slipperybidness: You're being a bit self-contradictory when you say that all that matters is power and features, then say you wouldn't buy an Onkyo. Why not, if all that matters is power and features?

LOL!

Yeah, I guess you could interpret my statements that way.

The important specs on paper are indeed power and features. Those comments pulled out of the article by Swerd are spot-on.

Real world, I'm also concerned about long-term reliability!

I have seen so many problems and complaints with Onkyo, that the brand is not in my future, plain and simple. The same goes for LG and Sony. I don't care if it's the greatest product to ever hit the market, if it has a Sony, Onkyo, or LG badge on it....then it's not for me!

On a side note, Onkyo tends to run hot! So be aware of that. I will give it to Onkyo that the features and bang for the buck are tough beat, and they are the only new recievers with HDCP 2.2 support right now (that's a big deal).

Personally, I really like Yamaha! However, my current AVR is a Pio Elite. Next time around, I'll reconsider Yammy, or maybe Denon / Marantz.

To be fair, I have 2 friends that have Onkyo AVRs, and as of yet they have not had any problems.

 

[rnatalli]

Under $1K, I tend to lean towards Denon with Yamaha closely behind. Emotiva also offers a receiver at $499 with full PEQ so great if you're a tweaker. Above $1K, I personally like the Anthem MRX line.

 

[Dr. Bob]

OK, build quality is obviously important, too. Customer service - is'nt that more an issue of where you buy it from, than the manufacturer?

The Anthem would be a terrific option, but $1200 is a little rich for me. I'm looking at the Marantz SR5008 - available on Accessories4less for $400!! It's lacking HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 (as is the Anthem). But I'm thinking the first won't bother me as I'm not planning to upgrade to a 50" TV any time soon. Is HDCP a big deal?

The other thing that bothers me about the Marantz is that tiny porthole display. I know my aging eyes won't see squat from the couch. But maybe I should just assume that front panel displays are generally useless? (I'm mostly thinking about the bother of having to turn on the TV just to switch sound modes, like from (5.1) movie to (stereo) music mode.)

 

[Swerd]

OK, build quality is obviously important, too. Customer service - is'nt that more an issue of where you buy it from, than the manufacturer?

More and more, if you have any problem with some electronic gear, the seller refers you to the manufacturer. This is especially true if you buy from an online seller.

Is HDCP a big deal?

I doubt it, see this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-bandwidth_Digital_Content_Protection

The other thing that bothers me about the Marantz is that tiny porthole display. I know my aging eyes won't see squat from the couch. But maybe I should just assume that front panel displays are generally useless? (I'm mostly thinking about the bother of having to turn on the TV just to switch sound modes, like from (5.1) movie to (stereo) music mode.)

All this sounds like the analysis paralysis I encountered when I first bought a home theater receiver 15 years ago. I was making the transition from a much older home stereo receiver where all its features were simple and intuitive, to the brave new world of digital sound processing. The web pages from the receiver manufacturers talked about a bewildering amount of features that I did not understand. I didn't know if I would benefit from them, or if I would even use them.

I found the TV display (instead of the receiver's front panel display) very useful when I first installed the receiver and did the initial setup. After I got used to things, I often didn't bother with it.

After about a month or two of use, I finally got used to it (a mid price Denon AVR with an absolutely terrible owner's manual) and learned that the most important interface was in the remote control and not on the receiver's front panel. Most AVR web pages give the remote control little or no attention.

I've now owned two different AV receivers, the original Denon, and about 7 or 8 years later I bought used a B&K AVR507. The second time around, learning the receiver's "operating system" was simpler, even if it was more capable and complex than the older Denon.

The Marantz receiver you mentioned seems like it is a reasonable product. It claims 100 wpc, and does have preamp outputs available for all the channels if you ever decide to add an external amplifier(s). In the long run, I think those are the most important features to have. If you mentioned the speakers you have or plan to use with it, I don't remember them, but this receiver will probably drive most speakers.

Maybe you might benefit from reading the owner's manual for the Marantz receiver to see how you might actually operate it once you've done all the set up.

 

[LightningMike]

Just a simple question here about AVR Amplifier Power. When the manufacturers like Denon or Yamaha state they have say 700 to 1100 Watts of power, what does that mean in layman's terms? I mentioned that I'm currently using a Yamaha HTR-5063 which claims 630W or 90W X 7... then I got one comment that it was a decent AVR, another saying it was only 30 watts per channel. I saw a Denon at BB the other day and I think it said 1250 Watts. How much of this is Hype and how much is true? My BIL has the Sony SYR-DN1040 (loves its features) claims it has 1155 Watts. Does it?

Mike

 

[Swerd]

When the manufacturers like Denon or Yamaha state they have say 700 to 1100 Watts of power, what does that mean in layman's terms? I mentioned that I'm currently using a Yamaha HTR-5063 which claims 630W or 90W X 7... then I got one comment that it was a decent AVR, another saying it was only 30 watts per channel. I saw a Denon at BB the other day and I think it said 1250 Watts. How much of this is Hype and how much is true? My BIL has the Sony SYR-DN1040 (loves its features) claims it has 1155 Watts. Does it?

All those claims of very large power numbers are based on arithmetic we learned in grade school, such as multiplying 7×90 = 630. In terms of amplifier power output, they're fiction.

The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) has regulations of how receivers and amps power should be measured. Amplifier power should be stated as the highest power measured when amps are run with:

• an 8 ohm load on two channels simultaneously, such as front left & right
• as estimated by the root mean square (RMS) voltage method
  
• for 5 minutes continuously, after a 1 hour warm up period at ~1/3 full power
  
• over the full audio range of 20-20,000 Hz
• at a stated percent of total harmonic distortion, such as 0.7% THD

These measurements are usually (but not always) accompanied by the initials RMS or FTC, and they will appear in the owners manual on the specs page. For stereo amps, these ratings apply to all channels, but for AV receivers they apply only when two channels are driven. The FTC does not require measurements be done while more than two channels are driven. If 5 or 7 channels were driven under those FTC conditions, the power will be lower than what was measured while only two channels were driven.

You should ignore any other claims about power. They might be measured over much shorter time spans than 5 minutes, at a single audio frequency such as 1 kHz, at lower impedance levels (which will increase the apparent wattage), or at unacceptably high distortion levels. Or they might be plain false.

Sony, in particular, ignores these regulations, and because of that, their receivers should not be considered as hifi. What you tell your BIL is up to you .

 

[LightningMike]

I don't want to hijack DrBobs thread, I'll start a new thread with my concerns but thanks Swerd.

Mike

 

[3db]

The lesson to take away from this is to enter the AVR line up regardless of manufacturer midway avoiding the bottom line AVRs from every AVR manufacturer. There is far too much compromise in design, build quality, and features to meet the cheap prices of current AVRs.

Dr Bob, How long have you had your Yamaha (what model number is it) ? Has it been operating trouble free all this time? If trouble free, why are you looking at other models? What are you looking for in other AVR models that the Yamaha isn't giving you?

 

[LightningMike]

Jumping back in to note that I've owned two Yamaha Receivers in the past 15 years neither of which ever broke down, both are still 100% working. If I were to buy a new AVR it would need to have more/better HDMIs, Ethernet ready, a better GUI, and perhaps more power. I'm still trying to figure out why I'd need wifi if it had AirPlay built in.

I'd look at Yamaha, Denon, and Marrantz... maybe Sony.

Mike

 

[Dr. Bob]

The Yamaha is about 15-20 yrs old, I forget exactly. It doesn't have HDMI input, and only the original Pro Logic for surround sound. It's behaved perfectly all those years, and I would have gone for another Yamaha except for what I read about YPAO not being as good as Audyssey (according to some).

In the meantime I pulled the trigger and got a refurb Marantz SR5008. Haven't had much time to play (with) it yet, but so far I like it OK. I can't say there's a remarkable difference in sound from my Yamaha, except in surround sound modes. I like the three dimensionality that DTS Neo:music brings. (Yes, I'm a philistine who listens to stereo sources in surround mode.) My only problem is that it gives me TOO many options. Before I only had two knobs to twiddle (bass and treble). Now I have to decide: Audyssey on, flat, or off? Dynamic EQ on or off, and at what level? Etc. But I guess I'll eventually settle on what is best for most of these settings (the way I've already decided I like DTS better than Dolby PLII for music surround).

Thanks to everyone for the info and suggestions!

 

[LightningMike]

So Bob...

You've had a week, what do you think of the Marantz? Is it built like a tank? Is it easy enough to tweak the sound? Sometimes I crave for _more_ direct control. Its probably a dumb comparison, but my '04 Mercedes has a Harmon Kardon sound system (factory stuff) that allows me to fade front to back, side to side, and even weight the system to the driver's position. Do you ever wish you could _easily_ fade your HT system and perhaps give the CC more/less volume or reduce the "theater" effect to the surround speakers? I asked that very question about the Marantz SR7007 and was told that this sort of control was once offered but is no longer found in the newer models. I've never owned a Denon, know that Marantz and Denon are sister companies, not sure how a Denon X4000 or a 3313CI compare to the Marantz.

Mike

 

[Dr. Bob]

Hi, Mike,

I'm still finding my way with the Marantz. After messing around with Audyssey/A Flat/Dynamic EQ for a while, I finally got around to trying the Graphic EQ. Eight more "knobs" to twiddle! Aack!

No I don't really feel the need for fade control, as I normally listen from the same spot. My main complaint is the lack of any Audyssey pre-set buttons on the remote. Sometimes I use my disc player for movies, and sometimes for music. Each time I switch, I have to go into set-up, click on Audio, click a bunch more times to get Audyssey, and then a bunch more to change the settings (eg I use Dynamic Volume for movies/TV but not for music.) I thought I might be able to assign two DIFFERENT buttons on the remote to the same input, so that one would remember the movie settings and one would remember the music settings, but it won't let me do that. Any suggestions?

 

[LightningMike]

I'm not familiar with the Audyssey system, but I'm guessing its more advanced than my Yamaha's YPAO setup. Conceptually, I'm guessing that the Audyssey uses multiple microphone locations to calculate the best overall balance between all the speakers? With my version of YPAO its one specific location, and if you don't like the recommended setup, you can go to a very confusing manual approach. When I'm watching DirecTV and have a News show on or a typical channel like DiscoveryHD, the AVR isn't smart enough to know that some shows and commercials seem to be recorded in different formats so that can be annoying, so sometimes I'm switching sound modes as I listen or surf. Maybe the new systems are better. LOL