How to choose bookshelf speakers for use in HT in large room.

[tman]

Hi. I'm newbee, not audiophile-- can you help?

I want satellite+sub for HT and am trying understand what satellite I need for my space. We watch TV within 5800cuft room, TV along long wall, sit about 15ft wide space, 8-10ft from TV. Question: Does room size matter or speaker placement for sizing satellites?
For Sub you size for full volume of the room.
For satellites mainly interested direct sound (?) so I would think placement (distance to speaker) should matter, not room size to first order. Is this correct?

I see 2-way bookshelf speakers, w/5 1/4-6 1/2" woofer, MTM advertised "suitable for large rooms" on websites. Same people's 2-way MT w/same tweeter do not say this. Both MT and MTM have higher decible level and continuous power vs. my present speakers (Advent Legacy II). My present speakers can play loud with 8Ohm 80-100W/channel amp and reach low (<=40-45Hz?). Example= Ascend Acoustic CBM 170SE rated @ 8Ohm, 91db, 200W continuous pwr; CBM 340SE rated @ 8Ohm, 92db, 240W.

Is there other specification, equation for selecting speaker impedence/ power/db level needed to play loud satellite+sub HT? Is the comment mentioned, e.g. Ascend Acoustic MTM being "suitable for large rooms" not relevant when you add a sub? I have a constrained budget and am looking at budget MT with 5-6" woofer like Ascend 170SE, Hsu HB-1, etc, don't want to pay for MTM like Ascend 340SE unless I need to to play loud.

Thanks!
tman

 

[Tex-amp]

The 170SE will be fine in your room. With the 340SE v. 170SE as my understanding of Ascend's explanation goes; by dividing the load between the two driver means half the distortion at the same volume or in other words you can play the 340 twice as loud to reach the same distortion.

I haven't heard to Hsu speaker but it should be fine too.

Without knowing the efficiency number of your present speakers it hard to know how loud the others will be able to play with your present amp. It takes doubling the watts for every 3dB increase in volume. In other words if you're looking at a speaker that is 85dB in efficiency and another pair that is 91dB efficient it is going take 4 times the power to drive the 85dB speaker to the same volume as the 91dB.

 

[tman]

Thanks for feedback!

Tex-Amp,

Thanks for your help! Can you comment on how high in power the Ascend 170's must go before distortion becomes a concern in HT environment? I'm sure MTM has less distortion over entire range, but if I'm happy with Ascend 170 at low volume, what happens as I turn up the amp?

I doubt I will get an amp rated for more than 3/4 the Ascend 170's or Hsu HB-1's continuous power handling and never turn amp more than 70-80% up.

I don't know the efficiency of the Advents (db). They are acoustic suspension so I thought they were inefficient by design. Advent's woofer also is covering an extra 20Hz-30Hz downwards in frequency vs. the bookshelf so I assume some of the power (maybe 15%?) is going toward this, though it's quite possible the tweeters on Advents don't go as high in frequency as the Ascends.

Mainly the dialogue track is what I am having difficulty with with my present HT setup. I don't know if you've watched Raiders of the Lost Ark but I have a lot of difficulty hearing what Harrison Ford mumbles. That's kind of my acid test. When I bought that DVD, I had so much trouble hearing with 4-channel setup w/dolby digital that I bought a CSW acoustic suspension center channel that was on sale figuring Kloss had his hand in both Advent and CSW so maybe. It was so bad, I returned it for a better CSW again and again until I had the most expensive center they make. It sounded least bad, but I have to turn volume up more than I want to understand the dialogue. I have tried everything I can think without buying equipment- placement, wiring, biwiring, cables, change cross-overs, tested with sub. I'm resigned to need for completely replacing my system, just want to be careful not to overspend or buy things twice.

Thanks again.
tman

 

[Tex-amp]

I run a pair of 170SEs for my 2 channel rig in a 17x20 room that has a ceiling that slopes from 9ft to 18ft and is open to the kitchen and breakfast room. They get louder than I can take before I hear distortion.

If you're driving to acoustic supension speaker loud enough for your taste your amp won't have any issue doing the same with a pair of 170SEs.

 

[jcPanny]

Big room

You have a very large room and the sound level you hear drops off with distance from the speakers. As you sugest, MTMs and Floorstanders can handle more power and usually have a higher sensitivity ranting than most two way bookshelf speakers.

Speakers with horn loaded tweeters like the Klipsch reference series have very high sensitivities which should work well for your application.

The OnixX-CS MTM speakers are only $140 each and might make a good L/R/C for your HT. The matching X-LS bookshelf speakers were picked as the best budget speaker by this site.

 

[j_garcia]

I would go listen to Klipsch, as they are kind of a love it or hate it sort of brand. If you like them, then they might be the ticket for a large room with a smaller speaker. Placement matters, but room size will affect the ability of ALL speakers to play at a given volume - larger the room, the less reflected sound (room gain) you will get, so the more you have to turn it up and/or the more power you need for a specific sensitivity speaker.

My former room was 19x20 with high vaulted ceilings and typical smaller bookshelf speakers that I tested were unable to fill it adequately (one pair). A full set of speakers however, (170s with CMT340 center and 170 surrounds) should have no problem filling a larger room. Larger bookshelf speakers work much more effortlessly in a larger room however and have always been my choice for medium to large rooms. My new room is roughly 25x14 with high vaulted celing and my M-T-M speakers are doing quite well.

I've heard the 340SEs and 170SEs in a room about your size and I personally would go with 340s up front.

The X-CS would probably also be an excellent choice.

 

[tman]

Thanks!

Thanks again for inputs. Answers my questions.

I'm still vacilating between the Onix, Ascend, and Hsus. I haven't heard Klipsch in about 18 years. I was very impressed with them but didn't like the sound- I could respect it, but it sounded a little bright to me (not to say I really know how sound should sound). If I listened to more big band and jazz, I think I might want Klipsch just for that application, but that's a small part of what I listen to. My friend who was showing them to me had paid $600 or $800 on discount for medium sized 2-way bookshelf. They were quite burned in when I heard them so I'm thinking I've heard a representative example of the Klipsch sound.

Hsu HB-1 also have horn tweeters and are efficient, but apparently sound quite different from Klipsch.

I'm leaning away from the Onix since it seems somewhat similar in concept (maybe not execution) to the Advent speakers I've had for last 20 years (supposedly best sound with treated paper for lowest cost in a heavy, filled, sealed box) and I want to move toward something different just for the change, nothing else.

I'm leaning away from the Ascend's due to price, but only a little.

I guess this means I am leaning slightly toward the Hsu HB-1... They are also apparently designed to roll off at 60Hz which will make setup with my reciever and sub a little easier. Only thing is the risk of buying something unheard... I've heard a lot of speakers I don't like...

R/
tman

 

[jcPanny]

ID companies

The Internet direct companies you list have great trial/return policies. You should consider an in-home shoutout. You may not like the horn tweeter sound of the HSU and Klipsch bookshelf speakers so don't rule out the MTMs from Onix or Ascend.

Take a look at the detailed AH review of the Onix X-LS bookshelf speakers. You probably wont find much in common with your 20 your old speakers.

 

[j_garcia]

The Onyx speakers were designed by the guy who designed the speakers I own. I did the in home audition of the GRs and I ended up going with them without hesitation, so an in home audition is a great idea.

 

[Rob Babcock]

I too suspect the Onix X-LS will bear little resemblance to your current speakers. I may eventually get a pair of them just to mess around with, so great are the reviews they've recieved. WAF should also be good as they offer several finishes, and their woodwork & finish is beyond "furniture quality." Onix Rosewood is probably the prettiest finish I've ever actually seen in person.

I'm curious- are you 100% sold on the sub/sat idea? Is there a reason you're not considering floorstanders? That's a pretty large space you have, and a tower will generally give you more acoustic output with lower distortion (ie no replacement for displacement, as the car guys say). Certainly there are bookshelfs that will do the job, just curious if you're committed to standmounts.

Unfortunately I have no experience with Axiom. The AH staff has given them very favorable reviews, and word of mouth is good, but I've never heard any of them.

If I recall, your old Advents had a sensitivity of around 88 dB/W/M. I also recall them being a pretty good sounding speaker for the size and price.

It's difficult to correlate woofer size with bass quality; while there's no getting around the laws of physics, some designers know how to wring maximum performance out of a smaller cone while some designers seem clueless about bass. I think, though, that it's wise to avoid woofers smaller than 5"- they often don't go low enough to integrate well with a sub.

Fanboy that I am, I have to throw in a recommendation for Monitor Audio. At nearly all price ranges I've found their speakers to be very competitive. I use a (highly modded) pair of Bronze B2's at my PC rig and am very pleased. The Silvers are also nice. And I have a pair of Gold Ref 10's that I think sounds very very good (they got a glowing reveiw by the Audioholics staff, too). They're nicely finished, attractive to look at and easy to drive as well.

Just my $.02.

 

[tman]

Re: Advents

88-89dB matches my recollection as well for my speakers (Advent Legacy II).

Bookshelf+sub is a conscious decision. I think from a strategy standpoint a powered sub handling <60-80Hz makes sense. I can hear improvements in my floorstanders if I reduce the frequency range the woofers are handling.
I think if well executed modern sealed design probably pants my Advents but again prefer to get something that is ported as it would be my first pair of ported speakers. My speakers have flaws. I would say if I compare my Advent LegacyII speakers with the Cambridge Soundworks MC500 I use as center channel, I find the center channel lifeless. However, as the MC500 is a 3-way design (as are the systems in my cars) there are a lot of details I can hear in my car or with MC500 I cannot hear with the 2-way Advents. I think personally the Advent Legacy II has good imaging in 2-channel and sounds neutral and musical with good bass extension. You can hear details, but not all of them--when someone is singing and you have a guitarist, pianist, etc backing them the mids get muddled with the Advent.

I think good, 3-way floor standers start to get expensive-- hard to justify to myself, let alone my wife or kids who will some day ask daddy why they are going to a state school...

Also for low frequency effects I think you need a sub.

For music, I'm very happy with the Advent Legacy II's in stereo. I am buying new system for HT mainly interested in accurate male, female voice.