How Small is Small ?

[hiker54]

<font color='#000000'>Hello,

I'm tweeking my surround receiver setup and am wondering what constitutes a &quot;small&quot; speaker. My receiver manual (Yamaha RX-Z1) does not define &quot;Small&quot; or &quot;Large&quot;.

My mains (Polk SRS 3.1 Towers) are certainly &quot;Large&quot;
but what about my Polk FXi5 surrounds ? (14 3/4 x 12 1/2 x 8 3/8) with a 6 1/2 &quot; woofer.

Curious as to what the forum members think?

Thanks,

Bob</font>

 

[zumbo]

<font color='#000000'>I think 6.5&quot; and below are small. 8&quot; and above are large.
7&quot;

I guess that would depend on how the speaker responds to bass demand?</font>

 

[Ross]

<font color='#000000'>In response to zumbo's assesment, I believe there is more than just the diameter of the largest cone in the determination of a small or large setting. &nbsp;

To start with, a unit that only has a large or small setting is pretty limited from the get-go. &nbsp;However, I would describe a large speaker as one that can reproduce the entire bandwidth (ie. 20-20khz) at reasonable spl levels and with reasonably low levels of distortion throughout the spectrum. &nbsp;I just don't know of any 7&quot; or 8&quot; drivers that can do 20hz. &nbsp;The most demanding part of that spectrum would be the low end. &nbsp;I don't really know of too many speakers that can reproduce an honest 20hz tone with reasonable distortion. &nbsp;Even towers with &quot;built in subs&quot; compromise imaging and soundstaging at the expense to reproduce louder bass levels. &nbsp;It is a total compromise in overall performance. &nbsp;

I think the implementation of a more flexible crossover system in a unit's bass management facilities is called for. &nbsp;Many of the newest processors (including receivers) out their do have much more extensive bass management facilities. &nbsp;

Its just a shame that one is forced to decide between such exteme labels, large and small. &nbsp;What is one to do??? &nbsp;

Some ways to work around these obstacles is the implementation of a subwoofer or even multiple subs. &nbsp;If your sub has line-level ins and outs for both mains, you could run the &quot;large&quot; setting and place the subs in line with the mains, while still having the flexibility of moving the subs away from the mains for optimal positioning and response. &nbsp;There are other options and variations available as well. &nbsp;It is really all a matter of personal taste and preference. &nbsp;

I would say that when in doubt, just leave it on the &quot;small&quot; setting and augment the low end with a sub. &nbsp;Bass management can be a complex issue, but there are ways around the &quot;large&quot; and &quot;small&quot; limitations of certain units.

best,

</font>

 

[zumbo]

<font color='#000000'>Ross, you know those bad @$$ Bo$e 5.25&quot; subs hit those notes!

BTW, you have a 2400 &amp; I have a 1400. I would assume that the 2400 has a small &amp; large speaker setting like the 1400?

</font>

 

[Ross]

<font color='#000000'>&quot;Ross, you know those bad @$$ Bo$e 5.25&quot; subs hit those notes!&quot;

I apologize, I just blindly assumed that everyone here already knew of the awsome seismic capabilities of the bose bass modules...

&nbsp;I thought that was one of the pre-requisites to become a member of this forum...

&quot;I would assume that the 2400 has a small &amp; large speaker setting like the 1400?&quot;

Yes, it also has both settings...so just say what's on your mind... &nbsp; &nbsp;

best,

</font>

 

[zumbo]

<font color='#000000'>The original question. If you or I were to set up our receiver, what would you consider to be small &amp; what would be large?

I am shocked to see you do not think an 8&quot;should be considered large? I have never heard of an 8&quot; midrange.

</font>

 

[House de Kris]

<font color='#000000'>Oaktron used to make an 8&quot; midrange. &nbsp;JBL uses a 10&quot; midrange in some of its models. &nbsp;IMO, you can't make a solid dividing line between &quot;big&quot; and &quot;small&quot; settings just based on woofer diameter. &nbsp;As Ross mentioned, it is dependent on the capabilities of the speaker itself. &nbsp;For example, my JBL 4560 has a 15&quot; driver, but it does a poor job with bass. &nbsp;I've heard subs with a 10&quot; driver go deeper.</font>

 

[zumbo]

<font color='#000000'>And I bet there is an eight that can go even deeper. Point is, you would not set your 15&quot; as a small apeaker. Would you?

&quot;used to&quot; would be a key word.

Also, your JBL 15&quot; is NOT a sub.</font>

 

[zumbo]

<font color='#000000'>hiker54

Your SRS 3.1tl are LARGE.

Your fxi5 are SMALL.

Why these people want to debate this is beyond me!

BTW, looks like you have a superb system!

</font>

 

[Ross]

<font color='#000000'>D-post...

</font>

 

[Ross]

<font color='#000000'>&quot;The original question. If you or I were to set up our receiver, what would you consider to be small &amp; what would be large?&quot;

Large = full range

Full range undoubtedly involves more than just cone size. &nbsp;

The human ear is much more sensitive to this lower end of the spectrum than the upper end. &nbsp;At a certain point, the upper end just becomes excessive. &nbsp;Optimizing the low end with the mid range is a very crucial aspect of a balanced system. &nbsp;This is usually the weak link in most of our systems. &nbsp;This area can almost always be improved upon, to a noticeable and meaningful degree. &nbsp;

&quot;Why these people want to debate this is beyond me&quot;

Healthy debate is always a good thing...and so is helping another fellow A/V enthusiast in getting the most out of their system, and perhaps improving our own in the process. &nbsp;

Zumbo, just think, if we did not have discussions like this, then we'd all probably be experiencing audio nirvana on our bose lifestyle systems...seismic bass included...

best,

</font>

 

[Loose4Bruce]

<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think 6.5&quot; and below are small. 8&quot; and above are large.</td></tr></table>

Sounds about right to me.  

 

Sorry.....just couldn't resist that one.

</font>

 

[hiker54]

<font color='#000000'>Thanks to all who replied. Actually, I was in error when I said the RX-Z1 owner's manual didn't address this.

In a &quot;fine print note&quot; as the bottom of a page ----&quot;As a guideline, select LARGE for a larger speaker dia. than 16cm (6.30&quot and &quot;SMALL&quot; for the smaller dia. than 15cm. (5.91&quot Change the speaker mode setting as listening to the actual playback sound if it does not meet your expectation.&quot;

Their grammar, not mine!

Thanks,

Hiker54

P.S.  I had mine set to SMALL from the start.</font>

 

[Ross]

<font color='#000000'>

&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;

&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;best,


&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;

</font>

 

[House de Kris]

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>

zumbo : <font color='#000000'>And I bet there is an eight that can go even deeper. Point is, you would not set your 15&quot; as a small apeaker. Would you?

&quot;used to&quot; would be a key word.

Also, your JBL 15&quot; is NOT a sub.</font>

<font color='#000000'>I absolutely WOULD set that particular JBL to &quot;small&quot; in the processor, even though it is a 15&quot; driver. &nbsp;I already mentioned it was poor for bass. &nbsp;The point I was trying to make is that speaker size does not necessarily dictate extention. &nbsp;Perhaps you don't have a good working understanding of what the &quot;small&quot; or &quot;large&quot; option buys you. &nbsp;&quot;Large&quot; lets the processor know that you've got a speaker out there than can handle the full bandwidth signal without compromises, so give it everything. &nbsp;&quot;Small&quot; tells the processor to route deep bass from a full range signal to the system subwoofer, offloading the deep bass duties from a speaker who couldn't do them justice. &nbsp;All comes down to capability, not inches.

I cannot locate where I, or anyone, every claimed the 4560 is a subwoofer.

And, &quot;used to&quot; is a pair of words, so you may call it a key phrase. &nbsp;Since Oaktron is no longer in business, every reference to them or their products would have to be in the past tense. &nbsp;I fail to see how this is key to anything. &nbsp;When the company folds, the products they shipped still exist.</font>

 

[zumbo]

<font color='#000000'>Ross, I love debate. I have learned more from that than anything. I have been wrong in some. I have been correct in some. That is why I am here.

But, looks like the fine print said it all. I got this one!

House, Good thing you got rid of those JBL 15's. I mean, if they can't play what they were intended to play! Also, you were comparing your speaker to a 10&quot; sub according to your post!

And, ok, &quot;no longer in business&quot; would also be a key phrase!

</font>

 

[zumbo]

<font color='#000000'>One thing that has not been mentioned.

When you set it to small, the high end is cleaner because less frequency demand is being amplified! All power is used to amplify what the speaker is intended to play.

Oh, except for a JBL 15&quot;.

</font>

 

[House de Kris]

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>

zumbo : <font color='#000000'>House, Good thing you got rid of those JBL 15's. I mean, if they can't play what they were intended to play! Also, you were comparing your speaker to a 10&quot; sub according to your post!

And, ok, &quot;no longer in business&quot; would also be a key phrase!</font>

<font color='#000000'>Hmmm, zumbo, you must be reading a different thread than I. &nbsp;I cannot locate where I ever claimed I got rid of them. &nbsp;That's a head scratcher, for sure. &nbsp;Oh, and they do EXACTLY what they are intended to do. &nbsp;They are called a mid-bass. &nbsp;You have very accurately noted that the comparison here is between a sub and a mid-bass. &nbsp;But it appears the real point still alludes you. &nbsp;Being, inches don't matter, the 10&quot; goes deeper than the 15&quot;.

True, &quot;no longer in business&quot; may be a key phrase, but key to what? &nbsp;You had said, &quot;I have never heard of an 8&quot; midrange.&quot; &nbsp;I merely mentioned one specific one, and hinted at a larger one. &nbsp;You even used the past tense in your comment. &nbsp;And there was, in the past, such a thing you don't know of. &nbsp;Is there a point.

Go ahead and twist this one around too. &nbsp;I'll keep playing for a while, then it gets boring.</font>

 

[Ross]

<font color='#000000'>

&nbsp; Ya'll two play nice &nbsp;

</font>

 

[zumbo]

<font color='#000000'>

15&quot; mid-bass!

In a home speaker?

&nbsp;Can you tell me where you got that one from?

</font>