How much influence to the SQ?

[lsiberian]

Yes, that was my point. The fact that something is debated does not mean that it actually makes a difference. All non-defective power cables are identical in how well they function.

without a power cable you have no sound.

 

[highfigh]

The Onkyo receivers that I've seen only have one curve, but these could be the exception rather than the rule. By absolute SQ, I mean maximum fidelity to the source. The bass boost applied by dynamic eq isn't accurate in a strict interpretation, as it disproportionately enhances the low frequencies. I've seen the FM curves, which show that this tech has a solid basis on good science. It is a definite subjective improvement with movies, especially at lower/more reasonable volumes. I'm not entirely sold on it for music as it makes the bass feel a bit heavy on some material. I don't like to run my sub hot though, so others will definitely disagree with me. It is good to have so many useful technologies at our disposal which allow us to dial in the sound to meet listener preference (which at the end of the day will determine if the tech has practical utility).

Wouldn't "maximum fidelity to the source" normally be 'the minimum alteration to the signal from the source to the speakers', as in no tone controls, bare-bones signal path and no processing? Does it mean 'sounds exactly the same as when and where it was mastered? Does it mean 'sounds incredibly life-like and natural' or is it processed every step of the way?

Maximum fidelity could be only from an electrical standpoint, where the input wave forms look exactly the same at the input and output. Having a system that sounds exactly the same as when/where it was mastered would be an almost impossible quest because only that equipment, installation, room and conditions will allow recreating the experience. Whether it's 'incredibly life-like and natural' is in the mind of the listener and it will vary from person to person. It's absolutely impossible to make it the same for everyone.

 

[highfigh]

without a power cable you have no sound.

What about batteries and an inverter?

 

[njedpx3]

Yes, that was my point. The fact that something is debated does not mean that it actually makes a difference. All non-defective power cables are identical in how well they function.

Jerry,

In post number #4 of this thread your exact words were "People debate power cables all the time too. Do they make a difference. Of course ...." Maybe you left your own question hanging and went on to another topic "Amp Power". Your sentence/paragraph structure was not clear to me Sorry if I misinterpreted what you were trying to say.

And in actaulity, you are not quite correct, but almost. All non-defective power cords of the same or greater amperage rating will have not effect. A lower amerage rating cord can provide enough resistance to heat up and possibly cause a fire or short circuit. For example, do not try to hook up a power amp with a two wire 18 gauge lamp power cord. In most cases, this is of no concern because a majority of power cords are rated at 15 amperes which is the amperage maximum of a typical household outlet.

Peace,

Forest Man

 

[JerryLove]

Jerry,

In post number #4 of this thread your exact words were "People debate power cables all the time too. Do they make a difference. Of course ...."

"Of course" is not only part of a different sentence, it's part of a different paragraph.

Amplifiers are said to sound the same, but if that's true, why do people debate them so much?

People debate power cables all the time too. Do they make a difference.

Which admittedly should have ended in a "?", but it was a rhetorical question. My point being that just because something is debated, doesn't mean it actually makes a difference.

Now that second sentence:

Of course, the saying is "amps *can* sound the same".

That has nothing to do with power cables.

Maybe you left your own question hanging and went on to another topic "Amp Power". Your sentence/paragraph structure was not clear to me Sorry if I misinterpreted what you were trying to say.

Fair enough and always a danger. I hope the above clarifies my intent.

And in actaulity, you are not quite correct, but almost. All non-defective power cords of the same or greater amperage rating will have not effect. A lower amerage rating cord can provide enough resistance to heat up and possibly cause a fire or short circuit.

There is a reasonableness which would need to be applied to avoid coming up with hundreds of cases.

Moving in very high magnetic fields causes conductors to gather a charge. So if you were dragging your power cable below the space shuttle, there would be a lot that would effect it. Similarly, uninsulated wire will short when it contacts itself of another conductor, so that would be another case. Over extreme distances, there's going to be power loss, so if your power cable is a mile long, other factors will kick in. Under extremes of temperature, various materials will behave in various ways. And yes, if you've put an inappropriately small cable on, you will have problems there.

I'm not sure I've seen a power cable with the proper connector (R19 for example) that was too thin to handle the load of a consumer-level amp: but there might be one out there.

 

[JerryLove]

without a power cable you have no sound.

You forgot the sound of me screaming "I CAN'T BELIEVE I FORGOT A POWER CABLE". Does that count?

 

[jostenmeat]

The Onkyo receivers that I've seen only have one curve, but these could be the exception rather than the rule.

As long as you're not talking about the entry stuff, 2eq, then they have both. Where Denon is better is that the selectability according to any specific listening mode is normally/always there, but not so with Onkyo. Stereo, with AS engaged in Onkyo can't really be had as flat (though there's a pretty nutty workaround), and if you're in THX mode for example, there really isn't the "Audyssey House Curve", but the Flat curve with THX Re-Eq applied. It will never apply both Reeq AND the Audyssey curve simultaneously, so no fear of a very steep rolloff. One can simply turn off the re-eq to have the flat curve as flat. While even very knowledgeable posters mistakenly point out something similar to what you've said, I would agree that implementation can sometimes be better. By far, most rooms are not significantly treated, and in such cases I think the AS curve would be desired.

By absolute SQ, I mean maximum fidelity to the source. The bass boost applied by dynamic eq isn't accurate in a strict interpretation, as it disproportionately enhances the low frequencies. I've seen the FM curves, which show that this tech has a solid basis on good science. It is a definite subjective improvement with movies, especially at lower/more reasonable volumes. I'm not entirely sold on it for music as it makes the bass feel a bit heavy on some material. I don't like to run my sub hot though, so others will definitely disagree with me. It is good to have so many useful technologies at our disposal which allow us to dial in the sound to meet listener preference (which at the end of the day will determine if the tech has practical utility).

I find your subjective opinion about music playback with this tech quite interesting, thanks. I've never had this tech, and so I'm curious. If it was me, and I actually had AS for my stereo, I'm pretty certain I'd be using the flat curve, but who knows.

OTOH, I do think most people using dyn eq/vol are doing so with movies as the top priority, if only for dialogue intelligibility, with much less fear of waking the kids, or angering the neighbors. Not quite as much need for that with music, IMO.

 

[njedpx3]

Peace

You forgot the sound of me screaming "I CAN'T BELIEVE I FORGOT A POWER CABLE". Does that count?

JerryLove and others,

Peace pipe - so I will insert a short joke

The User called the Help desk and said his PC wasn't working.

Firstt they had him push the "Esc" key and "Enter"

Then they had him try to reboot by pressing the "Reset" switch. It didn't fix the problem.

Then they had him check to see if the power cord was plugged in.

He said it was hard to see if it was plugged in or not because the power was out in the building and there were no office lights.

...


The rest of the joke :

Do you have the box the PC orginally came in ?

"Yes"

Then put the PC back in the box and return it because you are too stupid to use a PC. JOKE



Forest Man.


P.S. - Is it true new IPODs will have a warning notice telling users to only turn volume half-way or less to avoid ear damage ?

 

[JerryLove]

Peace pipe - so I will insert a short joke

You laugh, but I used to work Tech Support for EDS back in the mid 90s. Some may recall the massive power outages that were rolling around the western US in 1996.

I got a call from a person who's computer was not working. After doing some troubleshooting, including asking if it was plugged in, I got to asking about power.

Me: That's odd. Do you have power?
Him: Yes, it's plugged in.
Me: No, I mean power in the building.
Him: I don't understand.
Me: Are the lights on over your head?
Him: No, the computer is under the desk.
Me: No, the building lights. Are the building lights getting electricity.
Him: No, we are on emergency lighting because of a power-outage.

I swear to you that was my personal experience, I took that call (and far from the only such story, but the one most like your joke).

 

[highfigh]

JerryLove and others,
Peace pipe - so I will insert a short joke
The User called the Help desk and said his PC wasn't working. First they had him push the "Esc" key and "Enter" Then they had him try to reboot by pressing the "Reset" switch. It didn't fix the problem. Then they had him check to see if the power cord was plugged in. He said it was hard to see if it was plugged in or not because the power was out in the building and there were no office lights.
...
The rest of the joke :
Do you have the box the PC orginally came in ?
"Yes"
Then put the PC back in the box and return it because you are too stupid to use a PC. JOKE

Forest Man.

P.S. - Is it true new IPODs will have a warning notice telling users to only turn volume half-way or less to avoid ear damage ?

I actually had a customer call the store the morning after buying a cassette deck during a big sale. He launched into a tirade about how it was a POS, we were crooks for selling such crap (it was a nice little Sony) and that we should check out every piece we sell if this is the kind of garbage we're going to be shucking out the door. I asked what it did after turning it on and he said that it did nothing. I asked what outlet it was plugged into and after a short pause, he hung up.

 

[skers_54]

As long as you're not talking about the entry stuff, 2eq, then they have both. Where Denon is better is that the selectability according to any specific listening mode is normally/always there, but not so with Onkyo. Stereo, with AS engaged in Onkyo can't really be had as flat (though there's a pretty nutty workaround), and if you're in THX mode for example, there really isn't the "Audyssey House Curve", but the Flat curve with THX Re-Eq applied. It will never apply both Reeq AND the Audyssey curve simultaneously, so no fear of a very steep rolloff. One can simply turn off the re-eq to have the flat curve as flat. While even very knowledgeable posters mistakenly point out something similar to what you've said, I would agree that implementation can sometimes be better. By far, most rooms are not significantly treated, and in such cases I think the AS curve would be desired.



I find your subjective opinion about music playback with this tech quite interesting, thanks. I've never had this tech, and so I'm curious. If it was me, and I actually had AS for my stereo, I'm pretty certain I'd be using the flat curve, but who knows.

OTOH, I do think most people using dyn eq/vol are doing so with movies as the top priority, if only for dialogue intelligibility, with much less fear of waking the kids, or angering the neighbors. Not quite as much need for that with music, IMO.

That's good to know Onkyo includes multiple target curves. I had heard people discuss Denon's but I must have missed the discussions about Onkyo's curves.

My experience with dynamic eq was in a near-field environment. I'm not sure how the algorithm takes distance or speaker sensitivity into account. Audyssey always set my speaker levels at -12 dB, so it could be built into the level setting phase of the calibration. I changed it so the fronts were near 0 dB, so this could have made Audyssey apply more bass boost than it should have

 

[jostenmeat]

My experience with dynamic eq was in a near-field environment. I'm not sure how the algorithm takes distance or speaker sensitivity into account. Audyssey always set my speaker levels at -12 dB, so it could be built into the level setting phase of the calibration. I changed it so the fronts were near 0 dB, so this could have made Audyssey apply more bass boost than it should have

What was the reasoning to change the level settings by a whopping 12 db? That included your center too? You left the surrounds at the level AS gave you, or did you boost that by 12 as well?

I think if you want the best answer to your question, I'd ask at the Audyssey thread, which I now notice is finally a sticky:

"Official" Audyssey thread.

 

[skers_54]

What was the reasoning to change the level settings by a whopping 12 db? That included your center too? You left the surrounds at the level AS gave you, or did you boost that by 12 as well?

I think if you want the best answer to your question, I'd ask at the Audyssey thread, which I now notice is finally a sticky:

"Official" Audyssey thread.

I boosted everything proportionately. Since the dB scale is relative, all you have to do is keep the difference between the channel levels the same. I confirmed this with a dB meter after making the adjustments as well.

I didn't like cutting so much without an apparent reason to, especially since I had to turn the master volume so much higher. I had to have it set ~55 (absolute scale, max of 79) with the Audyssey cuts while I could keep it around 30 after changing the levels. Basically it was a comfort decision.