How much influence to the SQ?

[KEW]

Which components of an audio system do you believe have the greatest influence on the final sound.
Here is a list, based on my best guess (please critique).

1. Speakers (greatest)
2. Room
3. Pre-amp
4. DAC
5. CD player
6. Amp (least)

Thanks!

 

[highfigh]

Bad hearing will negate any level of quality in an audio system and not knowing what, if any, hearing deficits exist will make finding the best components frustrating and difficult, at best.

A bad room will make great speakers sound worse than they are. The listening room in a home won't be the same as where they are auditioned, unless that's done in the room where they'll be used.

Great speakers will reveal all kinds of things that were previously inaudible.

A great pre-amp/power amp/receiver won't make a bad CD/DVD/DAC sound better but a bad one will obscure whatever quality goes through it.

Amplifiers are said to sound the same, but if that's true, why do people debate them so much? Some speakers present a difficult load to the amp and some amps don't drive all speakers equally well. I wouldn't put this at the bottom of the list.

DACs have been compared and some of the least expensive ones were found to sound better than some of the pricey ones.

The source has to sound good, or there's no point in upgrading the rest.

Mid-level equipment is far better than much of the high-end gear from previous decades. At this point, technology has allowed improvements in every aspect of this kind of equipment, so my recommendation would be:

>Define which source and what listening material will be used most and choose the rest of the pieces accordingly.
>Determine the budget and make allowances for "If I go a little higher, it will only cost $xxx more", or if a smoking deal is found for a bit more, but will increase quality a lot.
>Choose equipment that totals slightly less than the maximum budget. Listen to some better speakers to find out if the improvements are worth the extra money. If they're worth it, be done and pick the appropriate interconnects for what is in the system. If not, try a better CD/DVD player or other main source and again, find out if the difference it worth the extra money. If it is, buy that. If not, maybe an upgrade in the receiver, preamp or power amp will make some difference (it usually costs a lot more to improve only a little here).
>Allow for some room treatments. It matters.

Take some time to become accustomed to the system and make some changes in speaker placement. Speaker placement makes a huge difference and will determine where any acoustical treatment will be placed.

Don't expect miracles but if something isn't right, find out what could cause it instead of just returning equipment. It's possible that changing the speaker placement will correct what doesn't sound right. So much information is available that finding solutions is easier than ever. A little education makes this a much more efficient process.

IMO

 

[KEW]

Excellent response. That is the type of information I am looking for!

 

[JerryLove]

Amplifiers are said to sound the same, but if that's true, why do people debate them so much?

People debate power cables all the time too. Do they make a difference.

Of course, the saying is "amps *can* sound the same". Power and the ability to quickly produce it is a difference. For a properly-designed amp, the response is flat across the hearing spectrum. It would seem that, after you get enough amp, more money buys you nothing in terms of sound.

 

[highfigh]

People debate power cables all the time too. Do they make a difference.

Of course, the saying is "amps *can* sound the same". Power and the ability to quickly produce it is a difference. For a properly-designed amp, the response is flat across the hearing spectrum. It would seem that, after you get enough amp, more money buys you nothing in terms of sound.

I think one of the critical aspects of amp selection is "How much is enough?". How someone determines if they have 'enough' is completely relative and again, open to debate in various circles. Knowing that a 30dB increase requires 1000x the power of the previous level is one thing but consumers don't usually have access to a way of finding out when and how badly their amp is distorting on large leaks, or how much power they use on average and relying on magazine reviews is a poor choice for real info, IMO. This begs questions like "Should I buy a Behringer A-500 or a Bryston power amp? Will one actually do something better than the other, or is one just prettier?

Since there's no way to make a low powered amp produce 'enough' power and the FTC removed the requirement that amp manufacturers rate their products the way they did when the rule applied, why not just adopt the criteria used by professional and broadcast system designers? If those specs can be met, it will truly be just a marketing issue and from the consumer's standpoint, it should make the decisions easier.

 

[Xargos]

People debate power cables all the time too. Do they make a difference.

Well known voodoo. You can convince yourself that you hear differences when you want to, but the science stands firm. As long as the connectors and wire gauge are adequate, there is nothing to be gained from any changes.

Of course if you were talking about the long runs of power lines from where electricity is generated all the way to the house, there may be some room for improvement.

 

[mtrycrafts]

..., why do people debate them so much? ...
IMO

People debate all sorts of settled none issues in life so why would audio be different? Just recently there was that pi issue Evolution is not an issue in the real sciences, yet, it is a huge debate topic. Just a couple off hand

 

[mtrycrafts]

Which components of an audio system do you believe have the greatest influence on the final sound.
Here is a list, based on my best guess (please critique).

1. Speakers (greatest)
2. Room
3. Pre-amp
4. DAC
5. CD player
6. Amp (least)

Thanks!

Number 1 and 2 are the most important. Hard to come up with a % factor
You left off the quality of the recording that would be next.
After that, it is not much of an issue in modern, well designed components.
But, of course, you cannot match a low powered speaker with a low impedance speaker with low sensitivity and a need for volume But, that is not the fault of the component, just the selection process.

Hearing was mentioned above, but that is kind of fixed, not changeable, got to live with it.

 

[JerryLove]

I think one of the critical aspects of amp selection is "How much is enough?". How someone determines if they have 'enough' is completely relative and again, open to debate in various circles.

You could measure listening and draw and determine it.

Heck. Just hook up your speakers to an infinite-power amp (or as close as reality allows you to find), listen to all your music with a watt meter, and see where the spikes are.

Knowing that a 30dB increase requires 1000x the power of the previous level is one thing but consumers don't usually have access to a way of finding out when and how badly their amp is distorting on large leaks, or how much power they use on average and relying on magazine reviews is a poor choice for real info, IMO. This begs questions like "Should I buy a Behringer A-500 or a Bryston power amp? Will one actually do something better than the other, or is one just prettier?

That's not the question it begs for me.

What it begs for me is "my AVR is 110w, that expensive amp is 240w. That's only 3db different. The biggest amp I can find costs thousands and is 2000w, which sounds nice, but represents an 11db difference from my AVR. Perhaps I should figure out my listening levels"

Heck, I've found speakers with a 10db different in sensitivity: that means the more efficient will do off a 120w AVR what it takes a 1200W monster to do on the other.

The fact that the requirements double every 3db actually leads me away from an interest in incremental wattage increases. Anything less than an order of magnitude is barely audible.

And your 30db? Find me an amp 1000x an off-the-shelf AVR (around 100w). Where is my 100,000w amp and what does it cost (and what circuit breaker will allow it).

Since there's no way to make a low powered amp produce 'enough' power and the FTC removed the requirement that amp manufacturers rate their products the way they did when the rule applied, why not just adopt the criteria used by professional and broadcast system designers? If those specs can be met, it will truly be just a marketing issue and from the consumer's standpoint, it should make the decisions easier.

What the difference between a "low power" and "high power" amp here? 400wpc vs 80wpc? That's about 8db.

 

[jostenmeat]

It's commonly said by experts that over half of what you hear is the room. Depending on exactly who you ask, they might just say a bit more than half, and others would say 80% (and Dennis Erskine would probably one of those).

Then IMO it would be the source, and thanks to highfigh for bringing that up. IF I was to compare this to video, a well mastered bluray is still going to look better on a $600 plasma than a crappy VHS on a $3000 plasma.

Then the speakers. I know, crazy isn't it . . .

***Also in regards to the room, big factors include where the speakers are (which highfigh also brought up), and where the listener is. Probably the one person who helped me the most in understanding acoustics, treatment placement/theory (who is a scientest, organist with perfect pitch, and who tunes them for side money) personally believes that perhaps the Number One important factor of SQ is indeed listener positioning.

All the above is the big picture.


I'm not one to think changing out an amp is all of a sudden going to "widen the soundstage", but I'm also not quite in the camp that all electronics sound equally. However, I do believe the electronics choices are waaaay down the totem pole, and are given too much emphasis many times.

 

[highfigh]

People debate all sorts of settled none issues in life so why would audio be different? Just recently there was that pi issue Evolution is not an issue in the real sciences, yet, it is a huge debate topic. Just a couple off hand

That was basically a rhetorical question when I posted it.

 

[highfigh]

Number 1 and 2 are the most important. Hard to come up with a % factor
You left off the quality of the recording that would be next.
After that, it is not much of an issue in modern, well designed components.
But, of course, you cannot match a low powered speaker with a low impedance speaker with low sensitivity and a need for volume But, that is not the fault of the component, just the selection process.

Hearing was mentioned above, but that is kind of fixed, not changeable, got to live with it.

I agree with the "crap in, crap out' aspect of the recording but I think it could be assumed that high quality recordings would be used as much as possible. However, there's an awful lot of really good music that wasn't recorded well.

In your comment about matching, you meant a low powered amplifier to a low impedance speaker, right?

Actually, hearing is probably the most variable of the lot. Blood pressure changes, air pressure changes/sinus issues and fatigued ears won't allow sound to be perceived the same as a controlled test. Exposure to loud noises before listening will cause threshold shift, which drastically affects dynamics. Also, if someone has the money/great insurance, the hearing aid industry has come up with some huge advances in recent years, some of which were brought on by none other than Les Paul. Digital equalization controlled via RF makes it possible to tailor the hearing aids to the user with far more accuracy than ever before.

 

[ski2xblack]

Room/speakers interact so much they need to be considered together. This is the most important part of the equation.

Source quality would be next in my book.

Amps should be transparent, invisible. For ss, too much power is just enough. And if you have tube sensibilities, power is not as much a concern as proper speaker matching. Truly transparent amps will make source shortcomings more obvious.

If you spend $1K on cables before doing room treatment, then give me a call, I've got some swamp land for sale. Ditto if you spend that on cables after doing room treatments for that matter.

Heck, I've found speakers with a 10db different in sensitivity: that means the more efficient will do off a 120w AVR what it takes a 1200W monster to do on the other... And your 30db? Find me an amp 1000x an off-the-shelf AVR (around 100w).

Most of the dynamic range is in the first couple watts; higher efficiency speakers allow you to take advantage of those first few precious watts. If you're speakers are 95/db/w, for example, and you're listening at normal levels, that 30db is easy to achieve. Assume a noise floor of 60db for a quiet room. There is 38db of dynamic range in the first two watts! If you're average levels are, say 80db, you would still be operating primarily within that first watt, and only 32 watts required for 110db peaks. 30db dynamic range, and your average AV receiver would suffice. Of course it would be more realistic to be listening at an average of 85-90db w/ 100db or so peaks, and your average AV receiver would still suffice, unless you listen to all classical, all the time (where you would need ~260watts to achieve 120db peaks...the 30db dynamic range again maintained, but now we're in the buy more amp or more efficient speaker zone). Still, the average 100watt AV receiver would suffice if max levels were 110-112db, and that's pretty freakin loud. In addition, consider that speakers produce more distortion than any component in the chain by far; high efficiency speakers operating at the lower limits of their operation range will have less distortion than inefficient speakers being driven hard. The key to proper dynamics and greater accuracy is not necessarily more power, but more efficient speakers.

 

[Xargos]

Amps should be transparent, invisible. For ss, too much power is just enough. And if you have tube sensibilities, power is not as much a concern as proper speaker matching. Truly transparent amps will make source shortcomings more obvious.

Power with tube amps is still a concern to some degree, but like you said I find that it is less of a concern than with solid state amps. I'm quite thankful for that. Just imagine the amount of heat from a tube amp putting out the kind of power some of the high powered SS amps do!

 

[highfigh]

You could measure listening and draw and determine it.

Heck. Just hook up your speakers to an infinite-power amp (or as close as reality allows you to find), listen to all your music with a watt meter, and see where the spikes are.

That's not the question it begs for me.

What it begs for me is "my AVR is 110w, that expensive amp is 240w. That's only 3db different. The biggest amp I can find costs thousands and is 2000w, which sounds nice, but represents an 11db difference from my AVR. Perhaps I should figure out my listening levels"

Heck, I've found speakers with a 10db different in sensitivity: that means the more efficient will do off a 120w AVR what it takes a 1200W monster to do on the other.

The fact that the requirements double every 3db actually leads me away from an interest in incremental wattage increases. Anything less than an order of magnitude is barely audible.

And your 30db? Find me an amp 1000x an off-the-shelf AVR (around 100w). Where is my 100,000w amp and what does it cost (and what circuit breaker will allow it).

What the difference between a "low power" and "high power" amp here? 400wpc vs 80wpc? That's about 8db.

The amplifier power requirements are a big factor if the user decides they just have to buy the speakers that only do 85dB@ 1W and has a big, acoustically dead room. Fortunately, a 1000W amp isn't as expensive as it used to be.

 

[highfigh]

Power with tube amps is still a concern to some degree, but like you said I find that it is less of a concern than with solid state amps. I'm quite thankful for that. Just imagine the amount of heat from a tube amp putting out the kind of power some of the high powered SS amps do!

Big, high power tube amps work great in colder climates and can be a big help when used with a forced-air HVAC system. Lots of BTUs.

 

[mtrycrafts]

That was basically a rhetorical question when I posted it.

Yes, I figured, just for others consumption.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I agree with the "crap in, crap out' aspect of the recording but I think it could be assumed that high quality recordings would be used as much as possible. However, there's an awful lot of really good music that wasn't recorded well.

But it would still be an assumption.

In your comment about matching, you meant a low powered amplifier to a low impedance speaker, right?

Did I say that? Yes, that is what I meant

Actually, hearing is probably the most variable of the lot. Blood pressure changes, air pressure changes/sinus issues and fatigued ears won't allow sound to be perceived the same as a controlled test. Exposure to loud noises before listening will cause threshold shift, which drastically affects dynamics. Also, if someone has the money/great insurance, the hearing aid industry has come up with some huge advances in recent years, some of which were brought on by none other than Les Paul. Digital equalization controlled via RF makes it possible to tailor the hearing aids to the user with far more accuracy than ever before.

Yes, of course, all that will affect hearing to some extent but it might be a job in itself selecting a time to listen then.
While I have no experience with hearing aids, I would still question the effectiveness of hearing aids to that extent of the missing, reduced, or modified loss.

 

[Xargos]

Big, high power tube amps work great in colder climates and can be a big help when used with a forced-air HVAC system. Lots of BTUs.

You got me there. When winter comes around, that extra heat can come in handy. Some years I've actually run solid state in the summer and tube in the winter to balance temperatures!

Oddly enough, there's a nice sonic benefit to this. If you run tubes in the winter, you gain the advantage of less time spent with a noisy heating system running. If you run solid state in the summer, you spend less time with a noisy air conditioner running. Of course not all HVAC systems are too noisy, but plenty of them are.

 

[skers_54]

I think pre-amps/processors are becoming increasingly influential on SQ. With the proliferation of room correction algorithms and on-board, customizable EQ, pre-amps are really able to do a lot to mediate speaker-room interactions and tailor sound to match listener preference (which is ultimate arbiter of perceived sound quality).