How many Watts is your system?

[GreenJelly]

No, I dont want to know how much watts your system runs. I find people asking me this question all the time...

They never ask, "How does it sound?", "Is it Loud?", etc...

Watts dont mean anything... I have seen a speaker coil unravel under 1 watt of power. Quality, is the onlything that matters. Sound Volume is a part of quality but is not rated by watts. its rated in db.

When you ask someone how many watts there system is, your baically saying... "I really have no clue about how audio systems work!"

If you asked me how many watts my receiver has at 8 Ohms, that would show me that you know something about current.

I know some REALLY high end speaker systems that are so efficent, they will blow your socks off with high current 30 watts of power.

Just a personal pet peave... and NO, I dont know how many watts my subwoofer has. All I know is that it has enough Current and a correct design to deliver amazing performance with little distortion.

 

[Seth=L]

Awesome thread mindchild, I hate it when people do that too. "My stereo has 900 watts man". My response, " I have a 400 watt setup that will make two of your 900watt setups cry". People just don't understand that efficiency is key, and not only that but most amplifiers especially receivers are extremely overrated or just plain misleading.

I feel ya, all the way man.

 

[Sheep]

volts x amps = watts. You wanna know what your system will draw maxed out, do the math.

SheepStar

 

[markw]

Good point.

That's just slightly better than having someone ask "Is it a Bose?"

 

[ggunnell]

Good point, GreenJelly, and one that is not made often enough.

Limiting our discussion to solid state amps stages designed for use with typical mid to low efficiency speakers, good sounding amp stages for residential use are designed to control the flow of current through typical loudspeaker loads. Usually when the output stage will do this, the RMS power rating of the devices will end up being over 100 watts, even though that much RMS power is not usually necessary in a residential setting -- at least not over 80 Hz!

Many design situation DO require RMS power output as a design starting point: Pro amps for sound reenforcement, subwoofer amps, broadcast transmitter amps, etc. Quality residential audio amps are kind of a special case.

 

[GreenJelly]

volts x amps = watts. You wanna know what your system will draw maxed out, do the math.

SheepStar

This is a bit to simplified. The design of the amplifier will control the amount of resistance (Ohms) it can handle. That is very important, and isnt included in the above calculation.

If the receiver cant handle a high resistance it will clip. On cheap speakers, this leads to distortion, and MAYBE damage to the speaker. Most often, the speakers are not easily damaged...

That is until you start spending more money. Then the speakers become more sensitive to clipping at higher loads. If you clip the speakers hard enough, it will lead to damage to the coil or the cone. I have ruined a couple pair of midrange drivers with an overly agressive attitude.

Speakers can actually be safely overpowered if the signal is REALLY clean. A good Thiel speaker, rated at 120w can easily handly 200w of super clean power. Or will come appart on 10w of horrible signals.

Efficent speakers are nice, but it isnt always practicle. Cost vrs Benifit might lead to a high current amp with highly inefficent speakers, or vise versa. Generally I just look at how clear the sound is. I expect that the speakers will reach 110 db, on a clean signal. I really dont want anymore then that. I am past triing to impress people by making their, and my ears ring. I want to enjoy music for the rest of my life, and this means I should take care not to take in large amounts of high volumes.

Music CD's tend to be very even in their sound. They tend to not have extreme highs and lows. The volume tends to be very constant. Their are exceptions. I can point to some recordings of the 1812 Overture that are very constant until the cannons jump in. Then things start getting much louder.

Movies are different. They tend to have low voices and dialog then yank up the volume on the action and other sounds. I like this

Many design situation DO require RMS power output as a design starting point: Pro amps for sound reenforcement, subwoofer amps, broadcast transmitter amps, etc. Quality residential audio amps are kind of a special case.

These decisions are made with research and case by case needs. Professional applications require professional assessments.

Mike

P.S. Another question I hate is "how big is your subwoofer". I always say that its "Way to big"... hehe

I hate how much room my sub takes up... I hate how big all my speakers are... but sound trumps size.

 

[GreenJelly]

BTW: Wilson Alexandria can be powered with high quality low powered tube amps with really good volumes... Ofcourse at 750 pounds for each speaker, you would need superman to move them around. You also would need a special floor built just to hold them without causing the floor and house to sag around the speakers.

http://www.wilsonaudio.com/product/alexandria/

 

[3db]

if it were strictly DC , the watts = volts x amps

volts x amps = watts. You wanna know what your system will draw maxed out, do the math.

SheepStar

but we are dealing with ac so you need to throw a powerfactor angle in there.

P = V * I * cosine of power factor angle


Now my system is really REALLY watt intensive;

RCVR 5x100
32" CRT TV (what do they run at? 100-200 watts guessing?
Beer Fridge 1000 maybe?

so yeah, I'm chewing thru the watts big time! Espically whne restocking the fridge with beer.

 

[jonnythan]

So people don't know anything about audio.

That doesn't make you better than they. Take a couple of minutes to educate them on what really matters. Then you won't be condescending, you will have one less idiot to complain about online, and they'll know a little bit more.

 

[GreenJelly]

It would be great if you can teach people things. However people are not like that, and you dont get a good response...

Anyways, we are just ranting... and maybe someone will read this... thinking Hey, I got 10 billion watts, I want to go brag, then find out exactly what the numbers mean.

In fact the whole purpose of this thread was an attempt to pull in people of all types to teach them why these questions are not completely valid questions.

---------------------
BTW, unfortunately the amplifiers are DC powered. A good power supply is one of the things for a good signal. I know people who put UPS (Uniterupted power Supply units) and Signal Conditioners on their AC power to help even it out and make a more consistant result. A good powersupply should be able to convert AC->DC current and create an even source of DC power.

Some of the BEST amps are made with Power Supply Units that are seperate from the rest of the unit. They are placed away from all the electronics to prevent radiation and magnetic signals released from the AC current from effecting the amplification process. Its a good idea, though the cost benifit of such a design is tough, and the loss of current from a DC source down a few feet of wire can be another consideration.
--------------------

If someone new, comes here and reads this thread, they should realize the complexity of all these issues. They should walk away with an understanding that these numbers are simple guides and not definitions. They should start to understand that sound quality and sound quantity is not associated with these numbers. I would hope that they would be more interested in buying good speakers and electronics then getting stuck in the marketing.

I personally would like to see people on limited ($800) budgets walk away with a single pair of really good speakers rather then a full suround sound system of poor speakers. The Benifits of good speakers far excede the benifits of 5.1 surround sound.

I am a still a rookie of such. I dont work in the audio industry, and I dont study every new product that comes out. I like audio magazines, but I cant read them because I want to go out and buy every little $10,000+ product they review.

I feel blessed to have the basic understandings of the industry, its history, and the products techknowlodgy to be a good consumer. I am also so happy that I have learned how to listen. I mean really listen to the sound. To hear a note on the piano and hear the vibration of the string. I love to hear the singer breath between lyrics. I love to turn on my FM local PBS channel and hear the rumble of the Train pass on the railroad tracks that are right next to the station.

Its like detailing a car. If you leave small little bits of wax on the car, it doesnt make the car look good. People dont see the specs, but they look at it and it doesnt make them feel that its perfect. However if you spend time cleaning it, and buffing it, taking time to do the edges, and make everything perfect, people will feel differently when they look at the car. They may not know why, but they will know that it looks good.

Buying Audio equipment requires you to know what to listen for to recognize the small specs of wax and dirt.

 

[Ale_Bass_Freak]

can anyone give me an idea of what i can get for more or less 1000$ for music and movies ...more for music (techno, dance, electronica, trance)..id like to get us much thunderous bass as possible

 

[Xsound]

220, 221 whatever it takes.

 

[MDS]

220, 221 whatever it takes.

Classic line but probably lost on anyone under 30-ish.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

It would be great if you can teach people things. However people are not like that, and you dont get a good response...

Anyways, we are just ranting... and maybe someone will read this... thinking Hey, I got 10 billion watts, I want to go brag, then find out exactly what the numbers mean.

In fact the whole purpose of this thread was an attempt to pull in people of all types to teach them why these questions are not completely valid questions.

---------------------
BTW, unfortunately the amplifiers are DC powered. A good power supply is one of the things for a good signal. I know people who put UPS (Uniterupted power Supply units) and Signal Conditioners on their AC power to help even it out and make a more consistant result. A good powersupply should be able to convert AC->DC current and create an even source of DC power.

Some of the BEST amps are made with Power Supply Units that are seperate from the rest of the unit. They are placed away from all the electronics to prevent radiation and magnetic signals released from the AC current from effecting the amplification process. Its a good idea, though the cost benifit of such a design is tough, and the loss of current from a DC source down a few feet of wire can be another consideration.
--------------------

If someone new, comes here and reads this thread, they should realize the complexity of all these issues. They should walk away with an understanding that these numbers are simple guides and not definitions. They should start to understand that sound quality and sound quantity is not associated with these numbers. I would hope that they would be more interested in buying good speakers and electronics then getting stuck in the marketing.

I personally would like to see people on limited ($800) budgets walk away with a single pair of really good speakers rather then a full suround sound system of poor speakers. The Benifits of good speakers far excede the benifits of 5.1 surround sound.

I am a still a rookie of such. I dont work in the audio industry, and I dont study every new product that comes out. I like audio magazines, but I cant read them because I want to go out and buy every little $10,000+ product they review.

I feel blessed to have the basic understandings of the industry, its history, and the products techknowlodgy to be a good consumer. I am also so happy that I have learned how to listen. I mean really listen to the sound. To hear a note on the piano and hear the vibration of the string. I love to hear the singer breath between lyrics. I love to turn on my FM local PBS channel and hear the rumble of the Train pass on the railroad tracks that are right next to the station.

Its like detailing a car. If you leave small little bits of wax on the car, it doesnt make the car look good. People dont see the specs, but they look at it and it doesnt make them feel that its perfect. However if you spend time cleaning it, and buffing it, taking time to do the edges, and make everything perfect, people will feel differently when they look at the car. They may not know why, but they will know that it looks good.

Buying Audio equipment requires you to know what to listen for to recognize the small specs of wax and dirt.

...deep thoughts, by Jack Handy

 

[Seth=L]

The numbers most manufacturers give you don't mean a thing. I wouldn't be surprise if the power consumptions are skewed to meet the consumer's eye for an efficient or energy compliant piece of hardware. I have noticed the power consumptions fall sharply. Many think that the amps have become more efficient, while I feel they are just cutting corners to lower the consumers' costs. So a consumer wants a 100 watts perchannel and isn't willing to pay $1000 dollars to get it, so you get Sony receivers that are less than $400 that claim they have 100watts per channel. Word of advice, do not ever put budget receiver watts up against seperate amplifier's watts. Seperate amps that claim less power than their not so close relatives the budget receivers will most likely beat them out every time.

Thule amp:

Kenwood receiver:

Each one claims to have 100 watts per channel 5 channels. Which one do you think really has 100 watts x 5 channels, well you tell me?

 

[GreenJelly]

There are some truths to amps getting better. All electronic components (resistors, transistors, capacitors, coils, etc) are slowly getting better.

Ale_Bass_Freak; you got to go to the closest audio and video store. Dont go to Circuit City, Best Buy, etc. Go to a store that sells only AV components. Read magazines, and then go and talk to the guy.

I would recommend the http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.models/label/Model DM604 S3

I beleive that costs a little over $600. Full Range speaker. May not be enough BASS for you, so If its not, look at the lower level B&W 600 series speakers with a subwoofer... not very good at choosing subs, but you can always go with the same manufacturer.

 

[3db]

counterpoint

It would be great if you can teach people things. However people are not like that, and you dont get a good response...

m why these questions are not completely valid questions.

---------------------
BTW, unfortunately the amplifiers are DC powered. A good power supply is one of the things for a good signal. I know people who put UPS (Uniterupted power Supply units) and Signal Conditioners on their AC power to help even it out and make a more consistant result. A good powersupply should be able to convert AC->DC current and create an even source of DC power.

Some of the BEST amps are made with Power Supply Units that are seperate from the rest of the unit. They are placed away from all the electronics to prevent radiation and magnetic signals released from the AC current from effecting the amplification process. Its a good idea, though the cost benifit of such a design is tough, and the loss of current from a DC source down a few feet of wire can be another consideration.
--------------------

The metal box that surrounds the power supply in most decent receivers is called a Faraday cage and its purpose is to shield emi from the rest of the analog pre-amp signals. Digital signals are a little more immune to emi than the low level analog signals. In these designs, you would be very hard pressed to here emi interference coming out of your speakers even under no signal conditions and at full volume.

If someone new, comes here and reads this thread, they should realize the complexity of all these issues. They should walk away with an understanding that these numbers are simple guides and not definitions. They should start to understand that sound quality and sound quantity is not associated with these numbers. I would hope that they would be more interested in buying good speakers and electronics then getting stuck in the marketing.

I personally would like to see people on limited ($800) budgets walk away with a single pair of really good speakers rather then a full suround sound system of poor speakers. The Benifits of good speakers far excede the benifits of 5.1 surround sound.

I disagree. The whole a/v chain is as good as it weakest link so if you hooked crap up anywhere in your chain, then your gonna hear crap coming out of your speakers. I think the whole thing revolves around balance and if you have certain quality of speaker, you want to ensure that the rest o fthe chain is of similar quality to get the most out of your system, unless off course, you have a planned upgrade path in mind.

 

[Nick250]

I would recommend the http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.models/label/Model DM604 S3
I beleive that costs a little over $600.

The 604's are about triple that.

 

[GreenJelly]

The 603's are infact 1k less then the 604's...

I am sorry, I looked up the price's and they increased the price of the 604's on the last revision.

The 603's are wonderfull too, and at $1K less you cant go wrong... you could use the left over money and a little bit more to get a subwoofer.

I heard the 601-603's on this latest revision, and they all sound wonderfull. 601's are lacking low mids to bass. 602's are great with a subwoofer or as rears. And for most people the 603's are wonderfull on their own, though your music selection will most likely leaving you unsatisfied without a sub.

The basic bass beat of techno and dance music is really low. I would check out the 603's...

The 604's use to be allot less money

The only other option would be a used pair of thiels 3.5 which sell for used at $1K and that have Lots of Base. Ofcourse you MUST have a 4 Ohm power source. If you dont, then you will have to buy one.

I would recommend the 603, 602 and the LCR center, and the 650 Sub.

I know there are better subs on the market, and the only component I wouldnt worry about mixing speaker companies with would be the Sub. I own a 650, and am very happy with it... though I am about 1 or 2 revisions behind.

 

[wire]

The numbers most manufacturers give you don't mean a thing. I wouldn't be surprise if the power consumptions are skewed to meet the consumer's eye for an efficient or energy compliant piece of hardware. I have noticed the power consumptions fall sharply. Many think that the amps have become more efficient, while I feel they are just cutting corners to lower the consumers' costs. So a consumer wants a 100 watts perchannel and isn't willing to pay $1000 dollars to get it, so you get Sony receivers that are less than $400 that claim they have 100watts per channel. Word of advice, do not ever put budget receiver watts up against seperate amplifier's watts. Seperate amps that claim less power than their not so close relatives the budget receivers will most likely beat them out every time.

Thule amp:

Kenwood receiver:

Each one claims to have 100 watts per channel 5 channels. Which one do you think really has 100 watts x 5 channels, well you tell me?

I agree with this post .
Dont be fooled by better this and that . It still comes down to the power supply . Separates will always kick the recievers , unless your reciever weighs 50 or more lbs .