How do you run your sub?

[Alex2507]

You got an SPL meter?

 

[DonBattles]

You got an SPL meter?

Yes Sir Standard issue Radio Shack unit.

 

[Alex2507]

I think I'm loosing my mind.....LOL....

You'll be fine. It's frustrating but fun too.

Yes Sir Standard issue Radio Shack unit.

Excellent.

 

[TLS Guy]

Just to be completely transparent here let me say that I don't know anything about your rec'r.

Set all your speakers to small.
Set all your crossovers to 80Hz.
Set all the distances yourself with a tape measure.

I couldn't find your polk's specs but this is a fine starting point and an ending point for most. If you can get your center under the TV, great. If not push it forward as much as possible and use some rubber door stops to angle it down. I think your surrounds could do with better placement but that's for later.

I had missed page 2 of your gallery and didn't look at your sig closely before. I don't trust the auto set ups worth beans. I think you're off to a wonderful start. Try not to get stressed.

Actually Alex, I think his speakers are capable of running full range. I think the Lucas labs recommendation to slavishly set speakers to small is wrong.

I will generally set up a system both ways. If the mains and center are robust, have good motor systems and are nicely balanced speakers, then setting the mains at least to full and then setting the sub to crossover at F3 of the mains X 2 usually gives by far the best results, especially for music.

Wearing my designer's hat, I would absolutely not want a crossover I did not specifically design, inserted to any of my speakers, unless it was a small bookshelf.

I bet Don is right and that his speakers do sound best full range, supplemented with the sub. I don't think it matters if the crossovers are the same order, whether he uses the receiver or sub crossover. I would however use the crossover that has the highest order roll off.

 

[Alex2507]

I will gladly defer to your greater experience.

However I will mention that post # 18 specifies a FR response of 38Hz which I didn't think would do for full range and in the interest of giving the receiver a break I thought going with 'small' would be best.

I'm pretty sure that Don isn't quite at the stage where he knows what F3 is.
Let's not give him an aneurysm. BTW 2 x F3 in this case is 76Hz.

Another thing I had in mind when making my suggestion is the issues I understand people encounter when having multiple sources produce bass frequencies. I thought this system might muddy up dialog in movies with all that going on.

 

[DonBattles]

Actually Alex, I think his speakers are capable of running full range. I think the Lucas labs recommendation to slavishly set speakers to small is wrong.

I will generally set up a system both ways. If the mains and center are robust, have good motor systems and are nicely balanced speakers, then setting the mains at least to full and then setting the sub to crossover at F3 of the mains X 2 usually gives by far the best results, especially for music.

Wearing my designer's hat, I would absolutely not want a crossover I did not specifically design, inserted to any of my speakers, unless it was a small bookshelf.

I bet Don is right and that his speakers do sound best full range, supplemented with the sub. I don't think it matters if the crossovers are the same order, whether he uses the receiver or sub crossover. I would however use the crossover that has the highest order roll off.

Thanks for at least confirming what I believe to be true. I'll spend some time with the SPL meter tomorrow and see what happens. Also using my laptop what is the best way to measure freq. response? Can the audyssye mic. be used to measure sound with the right software? Or do I need a different microphone?

 

[DonBattles]

I'm pretty sure that Don isn't quite at the stage where he knows what F3 is.
Let's not give him an aneurysm. BTW 2 x F3 in this case is 76Hz.

LOL....ya think I was about to hit the forum search for that one, thanks for helping me with keeping my gray matter intact.......

 

[TLS Guy]

I will gladly defer to your greater experience.

However I will mention that post # 18 specifies a FR response of 38Hz which I didn't think would do for full range and in the interest of giving the receiver a break I thought going with 'small' would be best.

I'm pretty sure that Don isn't quite at the stage where he knows what F3 is.
Let's not give him an aneurysm. BTW 2 x F3 in this case is 76Hz.

Another thing I had in mind when making my suggestion is the issues I understand people encounter when having multiple sources produce bass frequencies. I thought this system might muddy up dialog in movies with all that going on.

I think it a myth that a speaker has to reach 20 Hz to be considered full range. I think those MAs are pretty robust. His receiver might be another issue, if he pushes it hard.

The problem is his speaker is rolling off fourth order at about 50 Hz. Now add a second order crossover at 80 Hz from the receiver and his speakers are rolling off sixth order below 50 Hz, second order above that. You are much more likely to get a better splice with far less phase and delay problems, letting the sub start to supplement the mains just above F3. If the crossover is second order, the sub will be down 3 db at 80 Hz, and so start to have equal output with the mains around 68 Hz. In practice that works out well.

A paper last year at Holland AES showed the best room response from seven full range speakers, no sub. So I don't think having multiple sources of low bass is a bad thing, and many advise multiple sub locations.

I think people need to experiment more with their systems. A lot will come down to the capabilities of their speakers and receiver/amps, and how there rooms behave. I think people follow the recommendations of THX labs too slavishly.

Don says he did not like the results with his speakers set small and he is probably right.

 

[Alex2507]

F3 is covered in the first post here:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37001

There's a ton of stuff out there. What you want to do a search for is REW and you'll find info on it here at AH but HTS (Home Theater Shack) really is the land of the crazy calibrators. You are going in deep. Yep, your gonna need a mic amongst other things not the least of which is time.

Best advice I ever got was to wait for the wife to leave before running test tones. Thank mtrycrafts for that one.

 

[Alex2507]

TLS,

Multiple matched subs in good locations are a good thing for even room response but left and right speakers are where they need to be. I believe Don may have the option of running small settings with a crossover of 40Hz, maybe not but one thing is for sure, he already believes your course of action appeals to him. There won't be any holding him back now.

I do happen to have variable quadruple crossovers in my humble Harman Kardon and will now have to try out your suggestions just because you made them.

Thanks for the ideas Mark.

 

[WmAx]

For any system where ideal integration of subwoofers and mains is needed, you can just about forget about using the receiver for mains or subwoofer crossover use. The crossover systems are simply too limited, and in the very rare instances were a perfect integration are achieved, it's merely by chance that the roll off slope rates and xover frequencies happen to line up correctly.

If one is absolutely serious about wanting the best of the best in sound quality from their speakers and subwoofers(no matter what grade/cost they may be)and willing to deal with the bit of added complexity and hardware.....

I recommend a device such as the Behringer DCX2496 and using outboard amps for the mains(and other channels) so that one can route the pre outs to the DCX and have it manage all xover and EQ duties. It is a far more capable device and will allow seamless ideal integration, along with the ability to shape your subwoofer to control it's subjective 'tightness' of sound.

A lot of people are not comfortable adding in this additional processing due to the added complexity, I suppose. But if you want optimum sound quality, I don't see how you will achieve it with the primitive built in xover/EQ found in a receiver. The only useful EQ in a receiver is the more advanced versions of Audessey and other similar advanced automated perceptual EQ systems, which are a seperate thing from the manual EQ and xover functions I am discussing to get ideal integration of your main speakers and subwoofer(s).

-Chris

 

[jamie2112]

I run my sub at the sub park. He gets along with other subs pretty well and I don't even have to use a leash.....

 

[TLS Guy]

For any system where ideal integration of subwoofers and mains is needed, you can just about forget about using the receiver for mains or subwoofer crossover use. The crossover systems are simply too limited, and in the very rare instances were a perfect integration are achieved, it's merely by chance that the roll off slope rates and xover frequencies happen to line up correctly.

If one is absolutely serious about wanting the best of the best in sound quality from their speakers and subwoofers(no matter what grade/cost they may be)and willing to deal with the bit of added complexity and hardware.....

I recommend a device such as the Behringer DCX2496 and using outboard amps for the mains(and other channels) so that one can route the pre outs to the DCX and have it manage all xover and EQ duties. It is a far more capable device and will allow seamless ideal integration, along with the ability to shape your subwoofer to control it's subjective 'tightness' of sound.

A lot of people are not comfortable adding in this additional processing due to the added complexity, I suppose. But if you want optimum sound quality, I don't see how you will achieve it with the primitive built in xover/EQ found in a receiver. The only useful EQ in a receiver is the more advanced versions of Audessey and other similar advanced automated perceptual EQ systems, which are a seperate thing from the manual EQ and xover functions I am discussing to get ideal integration of your main speakers and subwoofer(s).

-Chris

That is all true, a crossover is a crossover. You only get away with these crude crossovers to subs because of the ears sensitivity in this region. If we crossed over in the mid band like this it would be an unmitigated disaster.

So if you don't want to delve into the customization recommended by Chris then experimenting to get the best splice by seeing what works best overall for your set up, is the best advice I have for that situation.

I suspect that far too many are slavishly following the THX recommendations and not getting the best results they could get from what they currently have.

 

[blued888]

I run my eD A2-300 with the crossover dial on the subwoofer maxed up to 120Hz and set 80Hz on my receiver.

 

[DonBattles]

...

Just as an update, if anyone cares, I spent a little time yesterday messing with the speaker setting's and EQ setting's on my 605. I measured speaker location with a tape measure, set the speaker levels with my spl meter, and set the EQ manually for front, center, surround, and sub. I have the sub blending in just where the MA's seem to fall off (running them full range LF,C,RF) and I'm fairly pleased with the results. Next I'm going to get Avia II assuming it can and will be of some further improvement (unless someone has another option).

 

[Alex2507]

Thanks for the update. Of course we care. I use the Avia II as well.
Sounds like you're happy with the sound.

 

[Buckeye_Nut]

How are most of you running your sub?

I run my SVS PB12_Plus2..................................HARD!

LOL


love it.......

Just sayin'