How do these numbers look?

S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Can a larger driver be underpowered/driven though (I honestly don't know)? Like in the case where it is too big for the room and is held back? I suppose I could research it but it seems like it could be yet another contested topic. If I put 18's in here, they wouldn't be moving very much at all.
If the driver is engineered properly, it can't really be underpowered.If you hook up a powerful driver up to a small, amp, the worst that will happen is that the amp signal will clip. But up until that point, the voice coil spends most of its time in a region of maximum magnetic force where it is very sensitive to any input signal.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Can a larger driver be underpowered/driven though (I honestly don't know)? Like in the case where it is too big for the room and is held back? I suppose I could research it but it seems like it could be yet another contested topic. If I put 18's in here, they wouldn't be moving very much at all.
The speaker manufacturer has a rating for minimum amplifier power- I don't know how they come up with their numbers, but there's no reason to use a 1W amp if relatively high SPL is needed unless the speaker system is ridiculously sensitive and while I have seen the arguments for building 1W amps, I prefer to have some headroom. Trying to reach high SPL with low power is a bad idea, especially when the volume control is turned up to the amplifier's rated power for normal operation- the amp WILL clip, regardless of someone's personal opinions on the matter (I know someone who has an old Pioneer and he's as confident that it doesn't clip as I am that it does). I Used to think that a woofer could be too large for the room until I ended up with a second EV 30W- the room wasn't very large, the woofers had been used for the electronic bass pedals of a church organ and even with those two facts making the pairing seem like a giant mistake, the sound was amazing. Those woofers are the reason I don't bother with subwoofers in my systems- it's not going to sound the same and there's no point in trying. The point is, the woofer(s) and enclosure(s) need to be right for each other and right for the room. The needed power is relative to the application.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
If the driver is engineered properly, it can't really be underpowered.If you hook up a powerful driver up to a small, amp, the worst that will happen is that the amp signal will clip. But up until that point, the voice coil spends most of its time in a region of maximum magnetic force where it is very sensitive to any input signal.
And my argument after the reference to the unsprung weight of wheels & tires- that's dealing with pounds/Kg, a speaker cone is ounces/grams- that makes a huge difference in the force required to make it change directions and resist movement.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
The speaker manufacturer has a rating for minimum amplifier power- I don't know how they come up with their numbers, but there's no reason to use a 1W amp if relatively high SPL is needed unless the speaker system is ridiculously sensitive and while I have seen the arguments for building 1W amps, I prefer to have some headroom. Trying to reach high SPL with low power is a bad idea, especially when the volume control is turned up to the amplifier's rated power for normal operation- the amp WILL clip, regardless of someone's personal opinions on the matter (I know someone who has an old Pioneer and he's as confident that it doesn't clip as I am that it does). I Used to think that a woofer could be too large for the room until I ended up with a second EV 30W- the room wasn't very large, the woofers had been used for the electronic bass pedals of a church organ and even with those two facts making the pairing seem like a giant mistake, the sound was amazing. Those woofers are the reason I don't bother with subwoofers in my systems- it's not going to sound the same and there's no point in trying. The point is, the woofer(s) and enclosure(s) need to be right for each other and right for the room. The needed power is relative to the application.
I've always leaned towards larger speakers, even after trying smaller ones. After 'not' keeping up with the evolving technology for roughly 20 years, I thought that the tech must have advanced to the point that had somehow cheated the physics of what I grew up learning about what I liked. About the only thing that had changed is that the distortion thresholds had improved a lot with the smaller speakers, even with the more budget minded designs. Only reason I thought this is, for how popular bookshelf speakers had become, and towers with 5"-6" drivers in them. In my time, 8" drivers were an absolute minimum and they had better be close (point blank, even) to the MLP. I am somehow sensitive to this presence of larger displacement even when a set of speakers are playing at low levels. I could sense the difference between a 12" and a 15", the latter of which had been my sweet spot even when listening to other peoples systems.

More recently, I adopted a 12" design, mostly due to a lack of affordable and well designed 15" full range speakers. Well beyond my needs in terms of power, but not in displacement. I listened to them whole room with a more distant MLP like modern trends suggest. They sounded fantastic, but again, even after this many years, I could sense that missing displacement presence of just a few inches and ended up changing them to near field experience and that has made them large enough. Again, it's something I notice more at lower SPL.

Subwoofers tend to confuse this a bit for me. Plenty powerful at 12", even with two, but they have a different under-presence altogether. I have heard that the idea of this "presence" is imaginary/bunk, or perhaps I just don't know of a better way to explain how larger cones tend to excite the actual air molecules in the room comparatively, even if it is somehow right at where the cones and these molecules meet. I did not go into this expecting to have this condition confront me again as I had no expectation bias. I actually expected modern designs to cancel this and to be honest, I did not listen for a difference, which has always just been ever so slight, yet noticeable.

My current main speakers are rated from 10-500 WPC. The sensitivity is around 98db. My last speakers were rated at 10-150 WPC with a sensitivity in the low 90s. The SPL for when all starts to blend, and where this displacement presence seems to really even out is at around 87db at the MLP. At those levels, I don't notice the difference between the 12s and the 15s so much, if at all. What this does do though, is causes me to listen more at these louder levels. This has been true regardless of speaker brand (as long as quality was reasonably close) or even where I have lived, although historically I have sort of always gravitated towards the same types/size of homes to live in. This home is actually a little smaller so I thought I would be ok with smaller speakers, but that is not the case. It's also from the upper mid bass to the lowest octaves. Mid-range and highs have never really been an issue. I did not really notice a difference between say, a 4" or 5" midrange speaker.

There's more to it that I have run out of steam with an explanation for now, but it took some work and change of listening style to really put these 12s in the realm of true ass-kickery. Basically it has taken living in the higher SPL realm, with four, 12" (2, midbass and 2 subs) drivers to get me there and near field at that. I'm not complaining. Just happy that something as simple as near fielding them fixed it for me in this music only system.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I've always leaned towards larger speakers, even after trying smaller ones. After 'not' keeping up with the evolving technology for roughly 20 years, I thought that the tech must have advanced to the point that had somehow cheated the physics of what I grew up learning about what I liked. About the only thing that had changed is that the distortion thresholds had improved a lot with the smaller speakers, even with the more budget minded designs. Only reason I thought this is, for how popular bookshelf speakers had become, and towers with 5"-6" drivers in them. In my time, 8" drivers were an absolute minimum and they had better be close (point blank, even) to the MLP. I am somehow sensitive to this presence of larger displacement even when a set of speakers are playing at low levels. I could sense the difference between a 12" and a 15", the latter of which had been my sweet spot even when listening to other peoples systems.

More recently, I adopted a 12" design, mostly due to a lack of affordable and well designed 15" full range speakers. Well beyond my needs in terms of power, but not in displacement. I listened to them whole room with a more distant MLP like modern trends suggest. They sounded fantastic, but again, even after this many years, I could sense that missing displacement presence of just a few inches and ended up changing them to near field experience and that has made them large enough. Again, it's something I notice more at lower SPL.

Subwoofers tend to confuse this a bit for me. Plenty powerful at 12", even with two, but they have a different under-presence altogether. I have heard that the idea of this "presence" is imaginary/bunk, or perhaps I just don't know of a better way to explain how larger cones tend to excite the actual air molecules in the room comparatively, even if it is somehow right at where the cones and these molecules meet. I did not go into this expecting to have this condition confront me again as I had no expectation bias. I actually expected modern designs to cancel this and to be honest, I did not listen for a difference, which has always just been ever so slight, yet noticeable.

My current main speakers are rated from 10-500 WPC. The sensitivity is around 98db. My last speakers were rated at 10-150 WPC with a sensitivity in the low 90s. The SPL for when all starts to blend, and where this displacement presence seems to really even out is at around 87db at the MLP. At those levels, I don't notice the difference between the 12s and the 15s so much, if at all. What this does do though, is causes me to listen more at these louder levels. This has been true regardless of speaker brand (as long as quality was reasonably close) or even where I have lived, although historically I have sort of always gravitated towards the same types/size of homes to live in. This home is actually a little smaller so I thought I would be ok with smaller speakers, but that is not the case. It's also from the upper mid bass to the lowest octaves. Mid-range and highs have never really been an issue. I did not really notice a difference between say, a 4" or 5" midrange speaker.

There's more to it that I have run out of steam with an explanation for now, but it took some work and change of listening style to really put these 12s in the realm of true ass-kickery. Basically it has taken living in the higher SPL realm, with four, 12" (2, midbass and 2 subs) drivers to get me there and near field at that. I'm not complaining. Just happy that something as simple as near fielding them fixed it for me in this music only system.
Having worked in car audio for 20+ years, one of the things that annoys me most is the tendency for manufacturers to sell subs based on chest-thumping bass. I hate that and it's far from realistic-sounding but then, when everyone has to be one of the "I'M SO EXTREME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" crowd, they're just selling what they want.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
Having worked in car audio for 20+ years, one of the things that annoys me most is the tendency for manufacturers to sell subs based on chest-thumping bass. I hate that and it's far from realistic-sounding but then, when everyone has to be one of the "I'M SO EXTREME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" crowd, they're just selling what they want.
I've always liked the punch from 'mid bass,' and this before I ever got near any sub bass specific subwoofers. But then, the music I listened to never had much in the way of bass below 35hz. But that was how it felt, live as well and that's pretty much the vibe we strove to emulate with our playback systems. We never cared how extreme anyone thought we were, either. Actually, we really were trying to keep from bothering people. We hated having sessions interrupted by the police and older folks were much less liberal than they are now. We used to play it as loud as we liked it when we could get away with it, and while we pushed the limits of acceptability and noise ordinances, it was just about listening to the music.

The neighbor kid across the street has really obnoxious subs in his car. Sheet metal rattling, house penetrating bass. While I can tell they are quality drivers, he's pretty ignorant with pushing it.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I've always liked the punch from 'mid bass,' and this before I ever got near any sub bass specific subwoofers. But then, the music I listened to never had much in the way of bass below 35hz. But that was how it felt, live as well and that's pretty much the vibe we strove to emulate with our playback systems. We never cared how extreme anyone thought we were, either. Actually, we really were trying to keep from bothering people. We hated having sessions interrupted by the police and older folks were much less liberal than they are now. We used to play it as loud as we liked it when we could get away with it, and while we pushed the limits of acceptability and noise ordinances, it was just about listening to the music.

The neighbor kid across the street has really obnoxious subs in his car. Sheet metal rattling, house penetrating bass. While I can tell they are quality drivers, he's pretty ignorant with pushing it.
I have always laughed at the cars that went past with thumping bass and rattling license plate frames.
 

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