How come movie theaters arent in hd..

[korgoth]

Why dont they use digital projectors? im pretty clueless about projector quality or what they use. I just saw a movie last night as was wondering why they dont make it HD.

home theater projectors are in hd arent they? at least converted to resemble hd..

 

[Shadow_Ferret]

Last I checked movies were still on FILM, so projectors are still shooting light through the celuloid to produce images on the screen.

Changing movie theaters to an all-digital format would require lots and lots of money to not only outfit the theaters, but just change the entire way movies are filmed in the first place.

That's my guess, as little as I know about it.

 

[Duffinator]

Why dont they use digital projectors? im pretty clueless about projector quality or what they use. I just saw a movie last night as was wondering why they dont make it HD.

home theater projectors are in hd arent they? at least converted to resemble hd..

What do you mean my HD? Digital can be HD or not and is not directly related to HD you see in your home. Film on the other hand is a higher resolution than HD to begin with. AS SF mentioned the conversion to Digital will be expensive and the theater owners and movie studios have been arguing over who will pay the price for several years. The studios will have the biggest cost savings with not having to make thousands of copies of each film and paying physical delivery cost. It will happen eventually but it could still be several years out. I don't remember the exact cost but digital projectors are 4 to 10 times more expensive than the current projectors in use.

 

[djoxygen]

http://www.dlp.com/dlp_cinema/dlp_cinema_theater_search.asp

Definitely digital, and definitely HD. Go find one near you.

Resolution may vary from one to the next, and I know they're not 4K, but most certainly better than 480i/p.

DLP and Imax are the only way I'll pay to see a movie in a theater. All others aren't worth the money, IMHO. (Well, not so humble.) It seems that, in addition to *not* having the reel splices every 20 minutes and the inevitable scratches that even one run through the film transport produces, the sound and picture in digital theatres seem to be better calibrated and maintained than film screens.

With only one screen in town, we don't even get every movie that is released to DLP, much less the full selection of the megaplex, but I'd rather wait a few months for the DVD than waste my money on the horrible quality of the average analog theater.

Now when Mark Cuban gets his butt in gear and equips all the Landmark screens with 4K Sony projectors...

 

[BMXTRIX]

Actually, all movies in theaters ARE HD by the current definition of HD.

HD is defined as an image with at least 720 lines of horizontal resolution.

35mm film is something like 4000 lines of horizontal resolution or something ridiculously high like that (my number isn't likely accurate - but I know it is high).

There are movies, like Star Wars ROTS that were shot entirely digitally, then transferred to film. Except there were a few movie houses that do currently have digital cinema projectors (read: upwards of $80,000 a pop!). I saw ROTS in one of those digital cinemas and must say it really didn't add much to the viewing experience other than you don't get any of the little dusts or blobs you typically would with a traditional film theater.

Eventually I am sure we will see digital cinemas pop up more and more as film distribution and analog mastering is very expensive it will make sense to distribute, edit, and everything else entirely digitally. Trying to meet the HD resolution that film offers is still a number of years away though. Film is simply a superior format in a lot of areas.

 

[djoxygen]

35mm film is something like 4000 lines of horizontal resolution or something ridiculously high like that (my number isn't likely accurate - but I know it is high).

The 4000 number probably comes from the 4K rez mastering done by companies like Lowry Digital for archival quality digital mastering of film-based material. There really aren't "lines of resolution" in film. The grain of the emulsion is randomly arrayed on the polyester. To digitize film with sufficient quality to make the digital master effectively indistinguishable from the original, 4K seems to be sufficient.

I saw ROTS in one of those digital cinemas and must say it really didn't add much to the viewing experience other than you don't get any of the little dusts or blobs you typically would with a traditional film theater.

Even when one my good friends was carefully assembling the reels and we were watching it the first time through the projector the night before the official release, the analog presentation was, to my eye, markedly inferior to the DLP here. But I would consider "dusts" and "blobs" to be a significant degradation of the intended presentation.

 

[tbewick]

Shooting in digital is farily recent and the technology is fairly new. The reason why Star Wars was shot digitally is that it incorporates so many CGI shots and it saves time not having to convert from film to digital as would happen conventionally.

Normal film most of the time looks excellent and I bet is still a better bet for price-versus-performance ratio (dynamic range, colour reproduction, resolution,).

If the film has been covered in dust and dirt then it's bound to look rubbish.

 

[Audioholics]

and the theater owners and movie studios have been arguing over who will pay the price for several years.

Exactly. And you can BET that the studios will charge more for the digital to make up for the cost savings of not having to ship, print, etc... Heaven forbid theaters make up any money over time so that they can be more profitable or (*gasp!) drop ticket prices...

 

[HookedOnSound]

Is Sony the only one that makes a 4k Projector?

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to be the only mfg. coming up in posts in all the reading I have done.

A few more competitive products offered from other mfg.'s should help bring down the costs but what is needed from the industry is the adoption of standards and build an infrastructure to support movie theatres.

As far as ticket prices going down, forget it. Digital projectors is only one of the many parts of the puzzle. At least not for a very long time, whatever savings will be achieved by the reduction of media production/distribution will probably be offset by technology implementation and DRM (digital rights managements). If there is one thing I know, the more complex things get the more things cost.

We'll get the digital movie theatres eventually but patience will definitely be required.

 

[brian32672]

Exactly. And you can BET that the studios will charge more for the digital to make up for the cost savings of not having to ship, print, etc... Heaven forbid theaters make up any money over time so that they can be more profitable or (*gasp!) drop ticket prices...

Hence the whole concept of Home Theater.

Personally, I would only go and see 1 maybe 2 a year at a movie house. Much more comfortable at home drinking a beer & smoking a cig.

I have fulfilled my quota, I went and saw ROTS. Next will be The Goblet of Fire, but its still filming.

 

[WmAx]

A 35mm film is something like 4000 lines of horizontal resolution or something ridiculously high like that (my number isn't likely accurate - but I know it is high).

Refer to this thread:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=71304#post71304

As for (color) 35mm film resolving 4000 lp/ph..... no way. Slighter over 2000 *lp/ph, with ideal conditions(with an original scan or development of a low speed photographic 35mm color film) seems to be probable. Only B&W super low speed(very long exposure times) can exceed this significantly.

*Standard measurement of video system capture resolution is vertical resolution(this is because of different aspect ratios--the vertical dimension is used as the reference for comparison). As in 1000 lp/ph(line pairs/per picture height). Display resolution is a fixed value based on the discrete addressable pixels. So, some conversion needs to be done if you want direct cross relation equivalences.

BTW, 4000 lp/ph resolution is an insane amount of resolution. Remember, the best examples of 8MP digital cameras today, resolve(measurably) about or just over 2000 lp/ph.

Note: You can not directly relate the file dimensions of a camera image with the screen resolution. The display screen has unique addressable positions. But a standard digital camera will not capture spatial information with sufficient efficiency to saturate the potential limitations of the pixel dimensions of the files it produces. Compare 3MP Foveon camera to 6MP standard digital camera for an example of this phenomenon.

-Chris

 

[tbewick]

You might be interested in this article, which is a comparision of 35mm film and standard definition DVD, done 6 years ago.

'At the Warner Preview Theatre, representatives from KEF, Denon, DTS, Barco, Snell & Wilcox and Warner Bros, as well as some film industry luminaries, such as two-time Oscar winning cameraman Freddie Francis, Oscar winner Ronnie Taylor and Oscar winner Billy Williams, were present to cast their eyes over picture quality. To assess the audio side were mixing engineers from Abbey Road Studios and various sound designers from the films shown'

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/articles/hccarticles/dvdarticles/199909DVDVs35mm/199909DVDVs35mm.php

DVD beat 35mm in sound quality but wasn't quite as good visually. This would suggest to me that HD-DVD will most likely look and sound much better than most cinemas.

 

[b_panther_g]

Why dont they use digital projectors? im pretty clueless about projector quality or what they use. I just saw a movie last night as was wondering why they dont make it HD.

home theater projectors are in hd arent they? at least converted to resemble hd..

Hi Jetyi83,

It's been mentioned before, but cost is the biggest issue. More specifically, who is going to take on the cost.

Just as a side note...
I'm surprised that there aren't affordable 4K digital projectors. I'd think that someone would just make an array of DLP chips, get a really bright bulb, program the controlers, and put it all in a case. I know I'm way oversimplifying, but doesn't that seem feasible?

Later,
Panther

 

[JoeE SP9]

If you want HD at the movies go to an Imax theatre.

 

[aarond]

Most movies with special effects, the film is scanned at either 2k or 4k. All the special effects are done on the digital intermidiates. Then put back on film using the ARRILASER film recorder http://www.arri.de/entry/products.htm usually 4k (4096 x 3112) for major motion pictures ie Spiderman. Smaller budget films do everything in 2k.
To answer the question why not HD for the cinema? I don't think a 2mp slide would be viewable on a 60' screen. Film you could call super HD
aaron

 

[djoxygen]

Is Sony the only one that makes a 4k Projector?

So far, yes. But I'm sure more will be on the way once someone can prove there is enough demand.

We'll get the digital movie theatres eventually but patience will definitely be required.

No patience required. DLP and Imax are the only way to watch movies in theaters.

I'm surprised that there aren't affordable 4K digital projectors. I'd think that someone would just make an array of DLP chips, get a really bright bulb, program the controlers, and put it all in a case. I know I'm way oversimplifying, but doesn't that seem feasible?

Sure, sounds easy. But (esp for home use) the demand isn't there yet. There's very little source material, and none available for mass distribution. For the pro (i.e. movie theater, presentation, trade show, etc...) market, we're barely dipping our toes into the 1080 waters. The company I work for got out hands on a couple of the first DPI Lightning 35HDs in the country for a corporate meeting at the beginning of this year. We rented them through a pro A/V company, but the cost to buy is nothing close to "affordable". I'm not sure Sony has even started shipping the 4K projectors in any significant quantity yet. Early adopters always pay the price for R&D.

 

[b_panther_g]

Sure, sounds easy. But (esp for home use) the demand isn't there yet. There's very little source material, and none available for mass distribution. For the pro (i.e. movie theater, presentation, trade show, etc...) market, we're barely dipping our toes into the 1080 waters. The company I work for got out hands on a couple of the first DPI Lightning 35HDs in the country for a corporate meeting at the beginning of this year. We rented them through a pro A/V company, but the cost to buy is nothing close to "affordable". I'm not sure Sony has even started shipping the 4K projectors in any significant quantity yet. Early adopters always pay the price for R&D.

Hey DJ.

I was referring to the pro market. I was just thinking of a 4K projector solution that would be less costly than Sony's monster.

Isn't Sony's 4K projector based on some form of LCD technology? If so, I agree that their R&D costs would be VERY high.

I was just thinking that if someone used existing tech, but in a new way, the "cost of entry" to 4K projection land might go down.

Maybe movie theaters should get together and have a design contest for the best compatible 4K projector. Who knows, maybe Bunny will put something together.

Enjoy,
Panther

 

[djoxygen]

Isn't Sony's 4K projector based on some form of LCD technology? If so, I agree that their R&D costs would be VERY high.

I was just thinking that if someone used existing tech, but in a new way, the "cost of entry" to 4K projection land might go down.

Maybe movie theaters should get together and have a design contest for the best compatible 4K projector. Who knows, maybe Bunny will put something together.

I think the problem is that there is no existing tech to do 4K. Sony is almost certainly using LCD since that's what their current projection line-up is based on, and they don't like to go out-of-house much. Apple's largest Cinema Display LCD is only 2560 X 1600. And TI/Samsung are only this year cranking out 1080p DLP engines in any quantity. CRTs don't push enough light for a movie theater sized screen, and a plasma that size would probably give the 1st 10 rows sunburn.

Anyone else got a concept for how to pull this off at less than $100K?

 

[furrycute]

Try to project a DVD movie onto a big theater screen, and see what kind of picture quality you will get.

Try to project a HD Cable broadcast onto a big theater screen, and see what kind of picture quality you will get.

There is just no comparison with the original analog film.

 

[djoxygen]

Try to project a DVD movie onto a big theater screen, and see what kind of picture quality you will get.

Try to project a HD Cable broadcast onto a big theater screen, and see what kind of picture quality you will get.

There is just no comparison with the original analog film.

Try going to a DLP theater and comparing the image quality to an analog film theater. If every theater were actually running the virgin original film master through the transport and you were lucky enough to be there, the film would win, but by the time the duplicate prints are made from the secondary masters, cut into 20 minute reels, shipped, reassembled by projectionists getting paid barely above minimum wage, run through the reels dozens of times...

There really is no comparison.

Since we've been almost exclusively patronizing the DLP in Minneapolis for almost 2 years (Pirates of the Caribbean in July 2003, if memory serves), I seriously doubt they are using anything higher than 1080/24p. If you sit close (we were stuck in the 3rd row for The Incredibles opening weekend) you can definitely see the pixels. But at the optimum distance, about 2/3 of the way back, my (corrected) 20/20 vision can't pick them out. And since they're not limited by 4 GB of space (DVD) or sharing space with 500 other channels in the cable stream, compression artifacts are pretty much nonexistent.

I have been working with video for 5 years in my 9-to-5. I'm pretty darn good at spotting flaws in picture. (Not to mention a couple decades of pro audio experience that affords me the suffering of film audio.) In the real world of film distribution, there is no way anything short of Imax can stand up.