mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord
I have been a silk dome fan for years. I have been looking at horn loaded tweeters as of late. I hear that there is a big difference, is this true?
I would say there is a difference.

A difference only your ears will be able to tell if you'll like, or dislike.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Confusion abounds in this thread

The real issue with tweeters is how the hand off to the mid or bass mid is handled.

Now the things of concern about any tweeter, are is Fs, its frequency response, and especially the linearity thereof. The off axis response (dispersion) sensitivity and power handling are all important issues. The designer also has to look carefully at the intrinsic roll off of the driver and the high frequency resonance.

Now I think horns are problematic in domestic installations. Horn loaded compression drivers will have some and often a lot of response irregularity due to horn resonances. Dispersion in the domestic situation is inclined to be less than ideal. The sensitivity and efficiency is high, however unless mated with a horn loaded bass unit the efficiency can not be realized, as the high pass output has to be padded down to match the sensitivity of the woofer. In my view horns have a place in large professional installations in large spaces.

In the hey day of Klipsch the HF horns were matched to huge bass horns. In the 50s the klipschorn was an impressive speaker, and still is, but few would have room for a pair. By the way, a properly designed L-pad can be impedance neutral.

Now the composition of the tweeter dome is only partially relevant. What I mean by this is that hard domes will have a sudden break up mode and an associated peak in output. If the break up mode is close to the audible range, it gives the dome a certain artificial brightness, for some reason. The soft domes obviously do not radiate as a unified rigid surface throughout operating range. However in my view rigidity of drivers, with the exception of sub woofer drivers is a misguided obsession. I have successfully used both rigid and soft dome tweeters.

Now the free air resonance of the tweeter is very important. The crossovers have gradual roll off, and are additive to the tweeter roll off. Now the crossover point is generally determined by the woofer response and roll off. The combined roll offs of the tweeter, woofer and high and low pass filters, must result in a smooth frequency response across the crossover region. This must do the minimal violence to phase and time. Now if the tweeter receives appreciable power in its region of low frequency resonance, then that makes for a harsh sound.

One of the important tasks when designing a speaker is to select drivers that will match well with each other with the simplest crossover. What the component parts of the driver are, or its theory of operation are very secondary considerations.

I hope this sheds some light on the issue.
 
F

FSUguy

Junior Audioholic
I demoed a few different types of speakers and finally settled on the Klipsch Reference series line. All I have to say is I love them, definitely not too bright for HT or music. Also, I have heard that after they have been played for more than 100 hrs they really open up. Can't wait to see what I have in store!
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I demoed a few different types of speakers and finally settled on the Klipsch Reference series line. All I have to say is I love them, definitely not too bright for HT or music. Also, I have heard that after they have been played for more than 100 hrs they really open up. Can't wait to see what I have in store!
Those reference speakers use a Titanium dome tweeter with a shallow circular horn. That horn is not deep enough, likely, to set of any horn resonance peaks. It is not really too different from a Dynaudio D 28, although that horn loads a soft dome.

The usual Klipsch arrangement is a square section tractrix horn with a diaphragm compression driver crossing over in the 1000 Hz range. Those types of speakers are generally only liked by pop music enthusiasts. They are tiresome for classical music especially choral music.
 
C

corey

Senior Audioholic
Those reference speakers use a Titanium dome tweeter with a shallow circular horn. That horn is not deep enough, likely, to set of any horn resonance peaks. It is not really too different from a Dynaudio D 28, although that horn loads a soft dome.

The usual Klipsch arrangement is a square section tractrix horn with a diaphragm compression driver crossing over in the 1000 Hz range. Those types of speakers are generally only liked by pop music enthusiasts. They are tiresome for classical music especially choral music.
TLS Guy - the great thing about your posts is that they almost sound like you know what you are talking about. You're spot on about his RF-82's having a titanium dome tweeter, but the horn is neither circular not shallow. You spelled tractrix correctly, but they are not square. Maybe your statement about a 1k crossover was just a typo.

Perhaps you find them tiresome, but I don't. BTW, I recently listened to Beethoven's 9th (that would be his Choral Symphony) on my RB-61's & enjoyed it very much.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
TLS Guy - the great thing about your posts is that they almost sound like you know what you are talking about. You're spot on about his RF-82's having a titanium dome tweeter, but the horn is neither circular not shallow. You spelled tractrix correctly, but they are not square. Maybe your statement about a 1k crossover was just a typo.

Perhaps you find them tiresome, but I don't. BTW, I recently listened to Beethoven's 9th (that would be his Choral Symphony) on my RB-61's & enjoyed it very much.
Sorry, yes the RF 82 does have the diaphragm type horn. The Tractix refers to the flare, the cross section of the horn is close to square. The crossover in your is 2000 Hz. However crossovers in the Klipsch range using compression driver diaphragms are generally in the 1000 Hz range, typically around 1600 Hz

They do have speakers in the reference line now with a dome, not diaphragm cone, with a circular horn and Tractrix flare, with crossover at 2300 Hz. I think they have introduced these to have an alternative to compression diaphragm horns, which are far from everyone's tastes

I personally do not like speakers with compression diaphragm horns under domestic conditions. The reasons being the frequency response of this type of driver and its dispersion pattern. The whole persona ends up being too much up front and forward for my liking.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I've gota friend who owns speakers from the Horneshop

http://www.thehornshoppe.com/

and they are no way like the Klipch speakers.
The speakers you are referring to have a full range driver by Fostex which is back loaded by an exponential folded horn. The bass cut off is determined by the size area of the horn mouth. Corner loading extends it.

The Fostex driver has lot of DIY plans and kits available for it. Tang Band have recently introduced a full ranger for horn loading and have a kit. I have never heard it.

However, the finest full ranger horns are built round the Lowther drivers, and they make finished enclosures also. Lowther have been around making full ranger back loaded horns for 70 years. The founder was Paul Voight the "father" of high fidelity reproduction. The company was sold to Donald Cave after WW II. He died quite a few years ago, but the company survives, and is beloved by full ranger enthusiasts.

http://www.lowtherloudspeakers.com/

The Lowthers have a significant following world wide. Some can just no abide the problems caused by crossovers, and just can not tolerate speakers with analog crossovers.

These speakers do not have a lot in common the the Klipsch speakers talked about in these forums. However they have a lot in common with the signature Klipsch speakers.

http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/60th-anniversary-klipschorn.aspx
 
J

Joe Schmoe

Audioholic Ninja
How can a full range driver produce good treble? I thought that tweeters had to be small in order to move fast enough.:confused:
 
D

dtaylor0319

Enthusiast
All in all being said I own the Klipsch Refrence line as well, and i am very happy with them. I don't find them bright what so ever....i guess it all boils down to is what your ears like and don't like, i suggest taking a couple of your favourite movies and a couple of music C.D.s along with you and listen to the different type of tweeters out there. Your ears will tell you what you like.



Hitachi 50" LCD.
Toshiba HD DVD A-3
PS3
Klipsch RF-63
Klipsch RC-64
Polk FXi3
Energy Ref. Minis
2-Polk PSW 1000's
Denon 2808ci
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
How can a full range driver produce good treble? I thought that tweeters had to be small in order to move fast enough.:confused:
you dont know?:D jk read up on the lowther speakers in tls post. i heard one driven with a small tube am in mono and dammmmmmmmm.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
How can a full range driver produce good treble? I thought that tweeters had to be small in order to move fast enough.:confused:
Thank you Joe for an excellent question.

A full ranger can produce excellent treble. That has always been one of the strong suits of the Lowther line and was a very strong attribute of the Jordan Watts driver.

The key is a non rigid cone, so that only the center radiates the HF. Most Lowther drivers have a whizzer cone and so does a brand new full ranger from SEAS.

The Jordan Watts did not. It was a four inch aluminum cone driver. The tractrix cone weighed only six grams. The cone of spun aluminum had highly controlled flexibility. Frequency response was even. It modern incarnation is in the EJ Jordan Line.

The full rangers that have stood the test of time, are Lowther, Jordan Watts, EJ Jordan's products, Bandor and Fostex.

Until computerized crossover programs, full rangers were the most accurate speakers around. I used exclusively full rangers until around 1976.

I will post more later if their is interest.
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
All in all being said I own the Klipsch Refrence line as well, and i am very happy with them. I don't find them bright what so ever....i guess it all boils down to is what your ears like and don't like, i suggest taking a couple of your favourite movies and a couple of music C.D.s along with you and listen to the different type of tweeters out there. Your ears will tell you what you like.



Hitachi 50" LCD.
Toshiba HD DVD A-3
PS3
Klipsch RF-63
Klipsch RC-64
Polk FXi3
Energy Ref. Minis
2-Polk PSW 1000's
Denon 2808ci
The low end aren't bright either. The frequency response spec for the F-1 (budget floor standing speaker) is 38Hz - 23kHz +/-3dB. No serious peaks in the treble. The speakers are a little bass shy but still capable of reproducing low E on a 4 string bass guitar without being meaningfull down in level. I might want to add a sub for organ or orchestral music (or low B on a 5 string bass,) but these would be fine for rock and jazz - at least in terms of frequency response.

Audiophiles are creatures of suggestion. One person thinks they are bright so everyone expects and, therefore, hears brightness. The description spreads like wildfire. If the original commenter thought they were dark you would read about everyone hearing a dark presentation on the internet. The Klipsch line appears to be pretty accurate in terms of frequency response, actually. People who like dark sound just need to reduce the highs with a little EQ. The rest of us should like these speakers just fine.
 
dorokusai

dorokusai

Full Audioholic
Horns VS Domes? That's like the classic Memorex ad VS a random hippy actually lighting his water pipe in front of a stereo.

Mark
Polk Audio CS
 
P

ppontiac

Enthusiast
I've probably 25 different types of speakers. The mighty Klipschorn is the best for me. Must have two corners 4 ft deep on the same side of the room for them to work. Klipsch Cornwalls are also awesome. A friend of mine has the Klipsch KLF 30; 3-way with horns. I want those since I don't have two good corners. Currently I have Klipsch Heresy II's and kg 4.2. The Heresy's sound foward, but so what? Live music sound live. Klipschs sound live! The kg 4.2's don't sound foward at all. Just clear & uncolored. Why spend thousands of $$$ on dome speakers that sound like they're playing through an 8 track tape deck? Dull domes are for record players, not turntables & CD players. The are many "non horn" speakers that sound great, but they're getting harder to find for a reasonable price. Blind listening is you best judge, except when listening to Bose. They always disappoint.
 
J

jamie2112

Banned
I listened to a bunch of the klipsch speakers over the years and I found them to be very bright and had harsh midrange. I guess it all depends on a listeners ear as to what they like best. My choice for speakers would have to be B&W as they move air without a sub and have a very clean and smooth hi end. I just didn't like any of the klipsch speakers that I listened to.
 

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