hope for multi-channel music?

[Hawkeye]

And if the lead vocal doesn't belong in the center speaker, can anyone tell me where it does? I believe it keeps the focus where it belongs especially when there is more than one listener on the couch.

Hi Rantz. To be clearer, a decent stereo recording has oft times fooled me into thinking there was audio coming from my center channel. Can't tell you the number of times I've gotten up and stuck my ear up to the CC only to hear nothing So, to me, isolating the vocals in the CC seems kind of redundant, and in fact could help to make a glorified karaoke mix. With a good setup, in the right listening environment, do we really need anything other than quad? Ok, maybe quad.1 for those moments when you really want to get down.

 

[zildjian]

With a good setup, in the right listening environment, do we really need anything other than quad? Ok, maybe quad.1 for those moments when you really want to get down.

That'd work as long as you're in the sweet spot listening position; but the more off axis you get, the more the 'phantom center channel' goes away.

 

[My Rantz]

Hi Rantz. To be clearer, a decent stereo recording has oft times fooled me into thinking there was audio coming from my center channel. Can't tell you the number of times I've gotten up and stuck my ear up to the CC only to hear nothing So, to me, isolating the vocals in the CC seems kind of redundant, and in fact could help to make a glorified karaoke mix. With a good setup, in the right listening environment, do we really need anything other than quad? Ok, maybe quad.1 for those moments when you really want to get down.

Hi bakatcha Hawkeye. I understand about stereo imaging, but with suround, having no center speaker is fine if you listen alone and are centrally situated between the two mains. Room size and speaker location comes into play, but usually when one shifts from a central listening position then so does the focus. A center speaker fixes the focus regardless of seating arrangement - which is why I prefer my 5.1 discs more so than the 4.1 ones (or the 5.1 disc with no center sound) as I do most of my listening with my better half and occasionally with guests. This is why I like listening alone when playing stereo discs.

 

[Hawkeye]

In the words of the famous kegger - "YEP"

 

[supervij]

FierceTIMbo, The Blue Man Group's DVD-A Audio, is an enjoyable diversion, with some very interesting sounds and compelling rhythms, but in my personal opinion, it pales compared to their DVD-A The Complex. Simply that the tracks on The Complex are actually songs, with singers and lyrics and everything (some of the vocalists include Dave Matthews, Tracy Bonham, Esthero and Venus Hum). Audio is almost completely instrumental, and while it's got some awesome grooves and beats, ultimately there's a sameness to many of the tracks. Some standout tracks definitely, and some that will be fun if you've got a sub, but in the end, the tracks don't stick in my head the way that actual songs do. If you like Blue Man a lot, then I would recommend it, cos it's interesting to hear their evolution from Audio to The Complex. I would highly recommend you picking up The Complex (one of my all-time fave surround albums), and if you like that, try out their The Complex Rock Tour Live DVD, where they took the tracks from The Complex on the road. It is entirely unlike their new Blue Man shows; it's more of a straight ahead concert.

As much as I respect the man we all know as Hawkeye, I gotta disagree with him this time. Quad is not nearly as effective as 5.1 for the reason already stated. If you're sitting in the sweet spot, it's almost as good as 5.1 (just lacks a dedicated LFE). But if you're sitting anywhere else, the vocals aren't anchored to a specific spot. Not saying anything new here, but just wanted to chime in.

cheers,
supervij

 

[Hawkeye]

Supervij, not a problem my friend. It's not a "you are wrong and I am right" thing. It just so happens that I do *ALL* my multichannel listening in the "sweet spot" - When I want to listen to surround I make sure I set aside time to turn the lights down low and plop right down where all the funky signals meet. Whereas when I'm listening to music while bopping around, doing other things, I listen exclusively in good 'ol stereo.
As Donald Fagen says, "...it's what I do..."

 

[Sheep]

The closest thing to Multi-channel music I have is DTS DVD concerts.

Personally, I hate it. I'd rather listen to a CD in Stereo + Sub(hopfully "s" soon). With proper placement, my Energy's completely surround me in music. Just the other day, I was listening to Tool - 10000 days (the song) and when the thunder came in, I could hear it behind me. All in Stereo.

Having the sub in nearfield behind me is also kinda cool because I can only hear a little bit of the top end (directionally). Plus those drum/bass hits have some serious slam to them.

SheepStar

 

[supervij]

Hawkeye, haven't you ever had a friend (or friends) who wanted to come over to listen to DSotM in surround, just to hear what all the fuss was about? That's happened to me a couple times, and then they wanted to hear more. When that's the case (having people over) I want everyone to sit in the sweet spot. And that's why -- for me -- 5.1 is better than 4.0.

But yeah, if you're the only one in the room, it matters not.

I remember reading a review of the multi-channel SACD of The Police's Every Breath You Take: The Singles, and the reviewer felt the m/c mixes were so jarring and different from what he knows the songs to sound like that he wanted to run over the disc with his car! I just thought to myself, why would anyone hate it that much. It's like a different interpretation, like when an artist/band covers someone else's song. Paul Anka does a pretty bizarre cover of Oasis' "Wonderwall", and while it's nowhere near as good as the original, I recognize it for what it is: a different interpretation. Maybe there are some who like his "Wonderwall" more than Oasis', but it's still not there to replace it; it co-exists with the original just fine. That's the way I see m/c remixes of stereo albums. Just like listening to Paul's "Wonderwall" is kinda fun, listening to m/c albums is equally fun. To me. No forcing my opinion down anyone's throat. Swear.

cheers,
supervij

 

[dobyblue]

This is not about stereo vs. multi-channel. It's about the type of mixing used. I personally can not stand anything that uses the rear speakers for emitting instruments. The rear channels are great for adding in ambiance cues for music, assuming a mix that uses it for only such purpose.

The rear channels are also good for various vocal parts. In The Downward Spiral Trent Reznor and James Brown did an incredible job of using the surround speakers for some of the whispering vocals that were often hard to hear in the stereo mix even with headphones on, unless you were reading along with the lyric sheet.
There's also so much going on during that album that not using the surrounds for various parts of the music would have been a dismal waste of time.
Listening to Brothers In Arms track 5 (Why Worry) the use of the right surround for the little guitar licks lends so much to the original recording.
In Sting's "A Thousand Years" from the Brand New Day disc the use of the background singers through the surrounds really opens up the recording and is reminiscent of a church choir chiming in from the back of the church behind you a floor up - it works so well.
To quote Peter Gabriel
"This is a great opportunity for musicians to take advantage of the medium. I love being able to listen from inside the music rather than observing from the outside, which is more often the case with stereo."

On the other hand, all of Porcupine Tree's albums sound stunning in 5.1. Steven Wilson really understand how to use the format effectively. He dosn't just mix in instruments to the rear. He uses the 5.1 system to create interesting imaging for sound effects, background vocals and some instrumentation. Listen to the bonus track Ambulanc Chasing on Stupid Dream. It is fairly simple song, but a great example of a song that is better in 5.1. PT really has one of the few sets of albums (In Absentia, Deadwing and Stupid Dream) that should be used as an example of how 5.1 can effectively be used in music.

I completely agree - the sound stage they present can make you feel like you're almost buoyant if you're listening with your eyes closed.
Although it was Elliot Scheiner who did the surround mix for In Absentia - they won the 2004 surround album of the year for it.
Scheiner did an amazing job also with Sting's "Brand New Day" and REM's "Out Of Time."
Elton John's "Madman Across The Water" is also very worth having for the surround mix.

I remember reading a review of the multi-channel SACD of The Police's Every Breath You Take: The Singles, and the reviewer felt the m/c mixes were so jarring and different from what he knows the songs to sound like that he wanted to run over the disc with his car!

That's a shame he felt that way - Walking On The Moon is a great example of a song meant for 5.1 - you're supposed to feel like you're in space after all.