Home Theater without subs?

TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I believe subs are an optional luxury, if you have speakers that perform well down to 35 to 30 Hz. Usually when I hear a system with subs, it is a mess. I think few really know how to use subs properly.

I don't use subs in my theater, but the bass is deep natural and perfectly integrated.

I think as active speakers become the rule, you will see a trend to subs being designed for specific speakers, and properly integrated. A sub and speaker are a crossover, that has to be specifically integrated and designed the same as any other. Choosing any speaker and any sub, is not the road to accurate audio.
 
K

kevintomb

Junior Audioholic
RBH SVT towers.

My main HT room has FIVE RBH SX-T2R towers so I don't need any subwoofers for my HT room either. :D

That has always been my philosophy - buy "Towers of Power" so that I don't need subwoofers. :D

LMAO, but you DO have subwoofers. They are just sitting under the upper part.....not sure I understand...

Unless you are trying to be humorous....
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
LMAO, but you DO have subwoofers. They are just sitting under the upper part.....not sure I understand...

Unless you are trying to be humorous....
The speakers are integrated full range active speakers. The lower speakers are in a TL, with ports at the top of the speaker. This TL has two 10" drivers, which are not sub drivers, but are high power drivers, with an Fs of 20 Hz. The upper 10" driver is producing sound up to around 400 Hz, as it carries the baffle step compensation for the two 7" drivers to increase power handling in that crucial upper bass and midrange. The lower 10" driver shelves off at between 40 and 60 Hz. Since both 10" drivers have their own amps, the LFE signal is mixed into to the feed to both the 10" drivers. So there is no separate sub as such, the lower unit is very much a part of this active integrated system. So there is not discrete sub as usually understood. It is an integrated design, and the lower drivers are fully integrated electronically and structurally.

Funnily enough, the design has a lot in common with the new Sigbert active speakers, but mine were built 17 years ago. The similarity is the resources devoted to the crucial upper bass and mid power band. My center is an active 2.5 way design using a SEAS coaxial unit, which has a striking similarity to the Sigbert active speaker from Norway. So I'm not surprised that Shady liked those speakers so much.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
LMAO, but you DO have subwoofers. They are just sitting under the upper part.....not sure I understand...

Unless you are trying to be humorous....
Just seeing if anyone was awake. :D

Yes, each tower does actually have a subwoofer. But my point is that they LOOK like they are just tower speakers from a distance. :D
 
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MalVeauX

MalVeauX

Senior Audioholic
Realistically we could setup books or smaller towers on top of subs as mentioned and just do a good job of integrating them. They don't have to be big 10 to 15 inch subs of course, depends on needs and the setup in the room. But some decent 8's could be integrated in and do a great job if the goal is just to basically have fairly good 30hz and up performance in room. Won't be as perfect as a tower designed with integrated subs as a single system. But for a low cost solution that is still excellent, if one were not looking to just have giant towers, books on small 8" subs would have a small foot print still. Foot print is what is going on after all with the context of this discussion with subs being excluded; the idea that separate from the two foot prints of whatever speakers are involved, having that 3rd or more foot print of a large sub box somewhere as well. Stacking sort of answer that.

A little project with a little 8" like this maybe... hrm.


Of course, this just leads me right back to how much extra cost and complication goes into a setup with integrating subs and stacking them versus just getting competent towers to begin with and avoiding all that extra. Which is probably why I just have towers in all the rooms.

Very best,
 
K

kevintomb

Junior Audioholic
The speakers are integrated full range active speakers. The lower speakers are in a TL, with ports at the top of the speaker. This TL has two 10" drivers, which are not sub drivers, but are high power drivers, with an Fs of 20 Hz. The upper 10" driver is producing sound up to around 400 Hz, as it carries the baffle step compensation for the two 7" drivers to increase power handling in that crucial upper bass and midrange. The lower 10" driver shelves off at between 40 and 60 Hz. Since both 10" drivers have their own amps, the LFE signal is mixed into to the feed to both the 10" drivers. So there is no separate sub as such, the lower unit is very much a part of this active integrated system. So there is not discrete sub as usually understood. It is an integrated design, and the lower drivers are fully integrated electronically and structurally.

Funnily enough, the design has a lot in common with the new Sigbert active speakers, but mine were built 17 years ago. The similarity is the resources devoted to the crucial upper bass and mid power band. My center is an active 2.5 way design using a SEAS coaxial unit, which has a striking similarity to the Sigbert active speaker from Norway. So I'm not surprised that Shady liked those speakers so much.

That is the very definition of a sub..>LMAO!~!

I see EXACTLY what they are, they are small speakers sitting on a powered sub. I get exactly how they work, but they are not even ONE unit......They are literally 2 separate units.

They are actually Two separate units. The upper mid and highs box is NOT affixed to the lower box at all, but sits on it.
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
That is the very definition of a sub..>LMAO!~!

I see EXACTLY what they are, they are small speakers sitting on a powered sub. I get exactly how they work, but they are not even ONE unit......They are literally 2 separate units.

They are actually Two separate units. The upper mid and highs box is NOT affixed to the lower box at all, but sits on it.
No, the long TL is built around the shorter line.

















That is a totally integrated speakers system. The lower 10" drivers are powered from separate amps, and cover different frequency bands. It is not like a stand alone sub at all. I should know, as I designed and built it.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Just seeing if anyone was awake. :D

Yes, each tower does actually have a subwoofer. But my point is that they LOOK like they are just tower speakers from a distance. :D
You could also look at it as you are not ideally locating your subs too. Just making them towers for aesthetics, meh.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
You could also look at it as you are not ideally locating your subs too. Just making them towers for aesthetics, meh.
You’re going to argue with @gene that his $55K RBH SVTRS towers have “not ideally locating subs, just making them towers for aesthetics“? :D

The SVTR can be fully passive “single-amp” tower design or monitor+sub design. Either way, modular towers are not much different than single full-range towers.

The big difference is that it is modular so a 200lb tower becomes 2 x 100lbs speakers for easier installation.

I love big towers of power (SVTR 200lbs, SVRTS 300lbs). But I would not want a single cabinet 200 pound tower or 300 pound tower. Way too big and heavy.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
No, the long TL is built around the shorter line.

















That is a totally integrated speakers system. The lower 10" drivers are powered from separate amps, and cover different frequency bands. It is not like a stand alone sub at all. I should know, as I designed and built it.
Pretty sure he was referring to ADTG's setup, not yours.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
You’re going to argue with @gene that his $55K RBH SVTRS towers have “not ideally locating subs, just making them towers for aesthetics“? :D

The SVTR can be fully passive “single-amp” tower design or monitor+sub design. Either way, modular towers are not much different than single full-range towers. The big difference is that it is modular so a 200lb tower becomes 2 x 100lbs speakers for easier installation.
It varies. Depends how many sub modules you're using too. Full range towers can work, but not always ideal.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
It varies. Depends how many sub modules you're using too. Full range towers can work, but not always ideal.
Yes, they are ideal. Separating fundamental frequencies from their harmonics is a significant audio distortion. Time coherency matters.

In my system the base fundamentals are timed with their harmonics, by minimal phase networks. In addition the TL designs are critically damped. The result is faithful accurate reproduction, not found in common approaches. The realism that this system can produce with a true "you are there" experience is unmatched.

As more lossless AV streams appear, the superb sound and picture is something I never believed would be possible.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
You’re going to argue with @gene that his $55K RBH SVTRS towers have “not ideally locating subs, just making them towers for aesthetics“? :D

The SVTR can be fully passive “single-amp” tower design or monitor+sub design. Either way, modular towers are not much different than single full-range towers.

The big difference is that it is modular so a 200lb tower becomes 2 x 100lbs speakers for easier installation.

I love big towers of power (SVTR 200lbs, SVRTS 300lbs). But I would not want a single cabinet 200 pound tower or 300 pound tower. Way too big and heavy.
Those dual TL speakers weigh 350lb each. I have only had to move them once. I removed the drivers before the move. The movers carried them and transported them. I do not intend to move them again in my lifetime.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Those dual TL speakers weigh 350lb each. I have only had to move them once. I removed the drivers before the move. The movers carried them and transported them. I do not intend to move them again in my lifetime.
I was going to guess each one weighs about 300+ lbs. Way too big and heavy.

Are you sick and tired of some people saying that your bass is “not ideal” because you can’t move the bass around to the exact ideal location (like separate subwoofers) since they are permanent attached to the 350lbs cabinet? I’ve never had a single problem getting outstanding bass from my towers of power. Maybe these people are just jealous they don’t own towers of power so they have to find some excuses. :D
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Overlord
If one is forced into a situation with no subs, then one has no choice. To the OP, Im glad you still enjoy your set up without the subs. Towers are good way of getting most of the bass.

Having dialed in my subs in all 3 of my systems, I can honestly say that I cant go without them. Music maybe but not action movies. If there's an explosion, I want to feel it and hear it. If my Scotch glasses are clinking together on the buffet, even better.


Maxell-tapes-Blown-away-guy-in-chair-1983-1.jpg
 
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3db

3db

Audioholic Overlord
Yes, they are ideal. Separating fundamental frequencies from their harmonics is a significant audio distortion. Time coherency matters.

In my system the base fundamentals are timed with their harmonics, by minimal phase networks. In addition the TL designs are critically damped. The result is faithful accurate reproduction, not found in common approaches. The realism that this system can produce with a true "you are there" experience is unmatched.

As more lossless AV streams appear, the superb sound and picture is something I never believed would be possible.
Towers are not always ideal especially if one is interested in even in room bass response and not just at the sweet spot UNLESS you've designed the room for tower placement. Ideal rooms ARE not a reality for a majority of the cases. To drive the point home, I could place your speakers in my greatroom and the bass would not be nearly as even as I have it now.
 
zhimbo

zhimbo

Audioholic General
You’re going to argue with @gene that his $55K RBH SVTRS towers have “not ideally locating subs, just making them towers for aesthetics“? :D
Gene has absolutely said as much on a YouTube video with Anthony Grimani and William Poes. "But they look so cool." or something like that.

Added by edit: One example starting at about 1:13:00 here (it actually comes up more than once in this video).
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I was going to guess each one weighs about 300+ lbs. Way too big and heavy.

Are you sick and tired of some people saying that your bass is “not ideal” because you can’t move the bass around to the exact ideal location (like separate subwoofers) since they are permanent attached to the 350lbs cabinet? I’ve never had a single problem getting outstanding bass from my towers of power. Maybe these people are just jealous they don’t own towers of power so they have to find some excuses. :D
No, I'm not tired of it, as I know what I'm listening to, which is the most realistic and accurate bass I have ever heard. It is even throughout the room, with not problematic peaks or nulls by measurement. There is just a slight rise in bass response in the rear seats. However most concert halls do this in the rear circles. If you listen in the rear seats, it gives you a sound a perspective like being in one of the balconies rather than the stalls. It is still a very pleasant experience.

Transmission lines produce a bass that is incredibly realistic on all program. It really is a pity that there are not more on offer.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Gene has absolutely said as much on a YouTube video with Anthony Grimani and William Poes. "But they look so cool." or something like that.
As we've said before, there are many variables including room acoustics, which would affect all full-range towers.

If your house is bad or "not ideal", there's only so much you can do even if you were to move your subs to the "ideal location".

So Gene had a 80Hz dip, huh? My room doesn't have any big bass dips.

 
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William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
As we've said before, there are many variables including room acoustics, which would affect all full-range towers.

If your house is bad or "not ideal", there's only so much you can do even if you were to move your subs to the "ideal location".

So Gene had a 80Hz dip, huh? My room doesn't have any big bass dips.


Ummmmmm……… jus sayin
 

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