"Home theater" speakers vs "musical" speakers

[panteragstk]

HTD is also in your area - and they can demo them.

...so I guess I should pay better attention. I literally work in the same business park as HTD. "In my area" is quite the understatement.

 

[j_garcia]

I'm going to go against the grain here.... I believe my deftech bp-10's sounded much better for home theatre than my old NHT 2.5i's. Conversely, the 2.5i's sounded much better for music. The bipolar design of the bp-10s opened up the sound. It gave me more a feeling of being in the scene. Whereas, 2.5i's imaged better which gave more of a stage like presence to the music.

To me that is more personal preference than the speakers themselves. This will always be the case too, because what one expects to hear for music may not match what is preferred for movies. I focused on music for my system and HT is secondary but certainly does not suffer from a lack of dynamics nor does it disappoint for movies. You are talking about two very different speakers and those two will provide a different listening experience. I do not like bi-polar mains at all, so if I were to listen to them, I might not have the same opinion (never know though). So in choosing a speaker, one needs to figure out what it is that the system is intended to be used for and pick a speaker that does that the best accordingly.

Apart from a very few and expensive bookshelf speakers, I don't think that statement is true at all, unless the room is small.

I have sophisticated ways of knowing for certain where the power band is for pretty much all music sources.

I can tell you for classical. pop and HT the vast majority of the power is between 80 Hz and 2500 Hz. About 90% of the power is in that range. The reason you think it is not is that subs on the whole are very inefficient.

I'm also familiar with cheaper drivers, and most cost effective small drivers can not come close to doing justice to that power band at any decent spl. Further they just fry if you completely correct for baffle step loss. For cost effective drivers it take two drivers to correct for Baffle step loss, either as 2.5 way or MTM.

To answer the posters question, a good speaker will be happy with any source. However speakers in the affordable range have a large number of compromises. This relates to speech clarity. Only very, very good speakers can reproduce natural speech with clarity in the HT environment and also be good neutral music reproducers. The fact is this is a hard nut to crack and I spent more time than I care to think cracking it.

What I find auditioning speakers at the lower end of the market, is that they have varying degrees of shout, which addresses the speech clarity issue in the HT environment, this may or may not upset the rock and pop enthusiasts. However it is a disaster in the classical environment, especially for choral music.

When I design now I have to design for the HT and classical environment. I never consider the pop environment. However much to my surprise and slightly to my annoyance it is the schools of pop music and mix engineers in the pop/rock realm that like to use this system. This not withstanding that their establishments are heavily populated by speakers from famous brands, noted for their use in that environment. None of those speakers would I ever purchase or listen to.

So I have found that a good speaker can hold its own whatever the source.

I don't disagree, I sort of made a blanket statement there (something I get on others about). In general, and for a system at this level, a system with a sub can sound as good as a comparable tower for both. If I were doing music ONLY, I would definitely move to a tower with no sub.

 

[panteragstk]

I don't disagree, I sort of made a blanket statement there (something I get on others about). In general, and for a system at this level, a system with a sub can sound as good as a comparable tower for both. If I were doing music ONLY, I would definitely move to a tower with no sub.

I think that is where I get my thinking. I used to do 2ch only many years ago, and that's where my mindset comes from. This was during the Dolby Pro Logic days so "surround sound" wasn't really all that great then. I've kept the same floor standing since that time and before I built my subs they were great at helping my sad little sub in the bass department. I do plan to do a music only system, but I already know what speakers I'l be using for that.

 

[ousooner2]

HTD is also in your area - and they can demo them.

...so I guess I should pay better attention. I literally work in the same business park as HTD. "In my area" is quite the understatement.

Well that's convenient! EMP also offers a 30-day, in-home trial (free return shipping) on the Impression series. Might be worth it to order those and have a listen to the HTD Lvl 3's if those are your front runners and/or look good to you. I'm sure you'll thoroughly enjoy either, but I can't say for certain. I can say for certain that the e55ti's are quite a bit better to MY EARS than the Primus 363's, Klipsch Reference, Andrew Jones Pio's and I even like them over the B&W CM series. Granted these were all auditioned in stores (not the 363's though), but the CM's seemed top heavy to me. Way too much treble for me. Not sure if that's a recessed mid doing that or maybe the room...who knows. Only my opinions. I'll have to remember that HTD is in the DFW area as I go down in that area sometimes

 

[Swerd]

… if a speaker reproduces music well, it will work just fine for HT.

I agree completely with that. Ignore the presence or absence of horn tweeters. Listen to how well speakers reproduce voices, both male and female. If they can't do that well, they won't be good for music or HT.

… I've toyed with building my own, but I wouldn't really know what design would accomplish what I'm trying to do. I've read and re-read review after review, but never really see anything that makes me want to go out and buy something.

For your price, about $300 for each L/C/R speaker, I'd suggest building ER18 MTMs. With the dome tweeter, you can get the parts for a pair of towers for $613 ER18MTM Dome

The guy who built the first pair of these skyline_123 is in Norman, OK. http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/diy-corner-tips-techniques/68531-new-diy-mtm-towers-designed-dennis-murphy-paul-kittinger.html

A design for a center speaker is in the works (I know, I've said that for some time ).

How are you at wood work? Some experience or none? If you have a projector and screen, you could finish these in matte or satin black and ignore the small surface blemishes on the cabinets.

 

[panteragstk]

I built my screen, riser, and subs, so I guess I'm decent at wood work. I considered building speakers for the HT room, but decided not to just yet. The reason is that mains are easy to find plans for, so many to choose from. It's the surround speakers that are the problem with DIY. Trying to find something voiced similar seems to be a difficult task, and with the way my room is they have to be a somewhat small speaker (not too small, about a foot tall).

 

[Steve81]

In general, and for a system at this level, a system with a sub can sound as good as a comparable tower for both. If I were doing music ONLY, I would definitely move to a tower with no sub.

I think you might be misunderstanding a bit (or else I am). I don't think TLS Guy is advocating towers and ditching a sub; he's advocating a speaker that can deliver 80Hz on up with authority, and you're not going to find that in a small bookshelf speaker with a single 5.25" mid-woofer. I mean, consider the E55ti vs the E5Bi: down low you've got 3-6.5" woofers per side versus a single 5.25" woofer. Even with both crossed to a subwoofer at 80Hz, it's pretty clear which is going to deliver a more exciting HT experience. You could say its an unfair comparison given the price difference, but you'd still see the same thing if you popped in a pair of Ascend Sierra 1s in place of the E5Bi.

 

[j_garcia]

I think you might be misunderstanding a bit (or else I am). I don't think TLS Guy is advocating towers and ditching a sub; he's advocating a speaker that can deliver 80Hz on up with authority, and you're not going to find that in a small bookshelf speaker with a single 5.25" mid-woofer. I mean, consider the E55ti vs the E5Bi: down low you've got 3-6.5" woofers per side versus a single 5.25" woofer. Even with both crossed to a subwoofer at 80Hz, it's pretty clear which is going to deliver a more exciting HT experience. You could say its an unfair comparison given the price difference, but you'd still see the same thing if you popped in a pair of Ascend Sierra 1s in place of the E5Bi.

I understand what he is saying and that means the "average" bookshelf is out of the picture. That's why I have MTMs, they give you plenty of punch in the midrange And the Ascends also being dual mid design would likely do a good job as well in the above 80hz department in the price range we are talking about here.

 

[Steve81]

I understand what he is saying and that means the "average" bookshelf is out of the picture. That's why I have MTMs, they give you plenty of punch in the midrange And the Ascends also being dual mid design would likely do a good job as well in the above 80hz department in the price range we are talking about here.

Indeed. Ascend themselves bill the 340s as mini-towers, so they're not the average bookshelf speaker.

 

[panteragstk]

Indeed. Ascend themselves bill the 340s as mini-towers, so they're not the average bookshelf speaker.

I noticed that. I wouldn't consider a 21" tall speaker a bookshelf. Not really a tower either. Your mini-tower designation seems perfect.

 

[Swerd]

I built my screen, riser, and subs, so I guess I'm decent at wood work. I considered building speakers for the HT room, but decided not to just yet. The reason is that mains are easy to find plans for, so many to choose from. It's the surround speakers that are the problem with DIY. Trying to find something voiced similar seems to be a difficult task, and with the way my room is they have to be a somewhat small speaker (not too small, about a foot tall).

I think you're worrying too much about surround speakers. They're relatively unimportant, and you shouldn't spend very much on them. Either of these ought to work well with ER18 MTMs:

SuperZero 2.0 | Bookshelf Speakers | Premium Audio Equipment

Dennis Murphy bought a pair of these to test if they go with his designs. He recommends them as surrounds for his Phil 3 speakers. The ER18 MTM is voiced similarly.

EMP Tek E5Bi Bookshelf Speaker

I heard these (or a closely related small bookshelf) a few years ago, and overall I thought it was neutral sounding and had no obvious faults.

 

[jostenmeat]

After a skimming, I think I agree with Steve; I am one that thinks one could choose a certain set of compromises over another when deciding between HT and music, and that is pretty much what I did for my two main rigs. (If I was TLS Guy, I'd want to have my cake and it, and I do agree that the ideal speaker can do everything well.) My stereo has extreme transparency, and the most important acid tests for them when auditioning were a cappella works written over a half millennium ago. OTOH, they are beamy, compress at higher volumes, with a tiny sweet spot. But I've never heard anything better for voice. Ever. I'm sure there's better out there, I just never heard it.

The HT is simply played back at higher SPL, in a significantly deader room, requiring greater dispersion, from greater distance, and at least the center speaker needs to overcome the attenuation of an AT screen as well, like yours. It's always interesting to me to see how much absorption the audience themselves introduce, depending on the number of people, and sometimes there are a lot of people. Also, HT tracks just don't require the extreme resolution of classical music, IMO, and I really believe that. Does anyone really know what a "spaceship blowing up in space sounds like"? Is Optimus Prime fighting with Megatron accurately rendered? When James Bond crashes his car broadside to take out a villain, is that exactly how it would sound in real life up close?

FWIW, rmk was running some very nice Revel speakers, and when he changed out to JTRs he didn't look back at all. The increased dynamic capability with lack of compression was totally worth it to him for what was only a minute compromise in resolution, I am paraphrasing by distant memory, but that is the gist of it.

Anyway, I was also once considering the idea of the ER18s for a front three. There are these bookshelves "about a foot tall" but apparently 14", not so cheap at a glance, but I think these might match well? Ask Swerd.

The Seas ER18DXT ported two way

The above said, it is generally and presently accepted that the surround speakers don't need to match, according to studies by F Toole, so far as I read on the intrawebs. I will say as a big fan of matching speakers, I wasn't the least bit worried of having mismatched surrounds if I had gone with the DIY upgrade to the front 3. If a mismatch is induced simply because the three most important speakers are significantly upgraded, then so be it, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. But like I said, matching is over rated apparently.

 

[greatdavide]

I might have missed it but have you considered used? I got a great 5.1 set of 2 year old Aperions for 800 bucks. Yeah the towers are the 4t but the center is a 5c and it's a stellar system.

 

[j_garcia]

The above said, it is generally and presently accepted that the surround speakers don't need to match, according to studies by F Toole, so far as I read on the intrawebs. I will say as a big fan of matching speakers, I wasn't the least bit worried of having mismatched surrounds if I had gone with the DIY upgrade to the front 3. If a mismatch is induced simply because the three most important speakers are significantly upgraded, then so be it, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. But like I said, matching is over rated apparently.

It will depend on the speakers. If the rears are good enough and/or similar enough, it won't be an issue. I had mismatched systems for years and never thought anything about it. THEN I had the chance to pick up a matching set of surrounds giving me identical speakers all around and that altered my idea of what surround could be. Mainly with multichannel SACD, the improvement was considerable. I actually went back and forth with my surrounds and compared them and the difference was easily there, however for movies the difference was far less important. That's why I always say that if music is the priority, matching is more important. For mostly movies it likely won't make much difference at all unless there is a dramatic difference between the mains and the surrounds.

 

[ImcLoud]

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guys don't know what you are talking 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[ImcLoud]

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I agree with every word of it 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[jostenmeat]

No, ^that isn't absolutely obnoxious and annoying.

 

[j_garcia]

I just came from the eye doctor. That hurts. Pretty much everything looks like that though.

 

[jostenmeat]

It will depend on the speakers. If the rears are good enough and/or similar enough, it won't be an issue. I had mismatched systems for years and never thought anything about it. THEN I had the chance to pick up a matching set of surrounds giving me identical speakers all around and that altered my idea of what surround could be. Mainly with multichannel SACD, the improvement was considerable. I actually went back and forth with my surrounds and compared them and the difference was easily there, however for movies the difference was far less important. That's why I always say that if music is the priority, matching is more important. For mostly movies it likely won't make much difference at all unless there is a dramatic difference between the mains and the surrounds.

I believe you. I am a fan of matching too, like I said. But, when was the last time you saw someone who put HT as 80% of the importance actually listen to SACD?

But more to the point. Say you're not allowed to sell them, and that they are permanent: Wouldn't you take the best front 3 speakers of the world, with mismatched surrounds, rather than the matched front three, even if of "decent quality"? Maybe not. Anyway, my point is that I wouldn't let sparse choices in matching knock some excellent values out of contention. The speakers that Swerd mentioned are less than several hundred a pop, but the prebuilt speakers that they most resemble cost multiple thousands of dollars.

 

[j_garcia]

I believe you. I am a fan of matching too, like I said. But, when was the last time you saw someone who put HT as 80% of the importance actually listen to SACD?

But more to the point. Say you're not allowed to sell them, and that they are permanent: Wouldn't you take the best front 3 speakers of the world, with mismatched surrounds, rather than the matched front three, even if of "decent quality"? Maybe not. Anyway, my point is that I wouldn't let sparse choices in matching knock some excellent values out of contention. The speakers that Swerd mentioned are less than several hundred a pop, but the prebuilt speakers that they most resemble cost multiple thousands of dollars.

I do agree with that and actually might even go to no surrounds at all and a 3.1 setup, which I did earlier this year when I couldn't use my big surrounds. Front 3 are definitely the most important.