Home Theater on 5K budget

[Rythmik]

From comparing their CEA-2010 numbers from the Audioholics tests, it looks like the Rythmik has a bit more mid-bass output but the PB13 has a lot more deep bass output. Between the two I would go with the PB13.

The issue with Audioholic test comparsion is that they are done by two different persons: Paul and Ricci. Our FV15HP was done by Paul and PB13 ultra was done by Ricci. But, Ricci has also tested the same FV15HP unit in AVS forum. So I would really trust his numbers as they are more apple-to-apple comparison with the same calibration and etc. After one compares Ricci's number, one may will FV15HP has slightly less output at 20hz, but at any frequency above 20hz, FV15HP has more output and sometimes close to 2-3db (3db is doubling the power). Quote of Audioholic tests from two different guys with no calibration comparision between them has given SVS some benefit in advertizing. We really should correct, or even stop that.

Ricci,

Correct me if I am wrong here.


Gene,

I would recommend that you put a note on tests done by different testers can show far more variability than tests done by the same person.

 

[shadyJ]

You are correct, of course, Ricci's measurements were the ones I should have been using, I had forgotten that Ricci also tested the FV15HP.

 

[Rythmik]

Here is the number comparsion with Ricci's data (cortersy of JC)

As for two FV12 vs one FV15, I would recommend the latter unless one wants to use two subs to get more uniform bass energy. The purpose of using multiple subs is to get more uniform bass energy in large sitting area. If one has only one sitting place, the improvement from multiple subs can be marginal if one does not have many choices of sub placement. For instance, if one places two subs in the left and right and sit midway (or fold line) between them, the frequency response on the "fold" line does not change at all (using symmetry and superimposition). Only when you move out of that fold line (such as to the left or to the right) that one can start hearing the difference.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What about one F15 vs two FV12? In terms of output & bass extension.

 

[Rythmik]

What about one F15 vs two FV12? In terms of output & bass extension.

FV12 is an entry level speaker. It is designed to maximize what one can do with only one sub. So it does not have mutliple tune and our objective is port tunign frequency needs to be 20hz. But being vented does have advantage of highing higher output. One FV12 has output very close to one F15. But below 20hz, F15 has more output. So I would say the upside for F15 is that it has lower extension (better impulse reponse) and the upgrade path is easy as one can just add a second unit. On the other hand for FV12, it has more output. But its lowest extension is 20hz and fixed which cannot be changed no matter how many FV12 we use.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

FV12 is an entry level speaker. It is designed to maximize what one can do with only one sub. So it does not have mutliple tune and our objective is port tunign frequency needs to be 20hz. But being vented does have advantage of highing higher output. One FV12 has output very close to one F15. But below 20hz, F15 has more output. So I would say the upside for F15 is that it has lower extension (better impulse reponse) and the upgrade path is easy as one can just add a second unit. On the other hand for FV12, it has more output. But its lowest extension is 20hz and fixed which cannot be changed no matter how many FV12 we use.

Thus, for the few of us who don't really care as much about the bass below 20Hz, and have the space for dual subs to balance room bass response, the dual FV12 @ $500 each seems to be a better buy than one F15 @ $900 each.

I set my dual D15SE @ 20Hz, instead of 14Hz (which a lot of folks probably do).

 

[timoteo]

You want LOW bass?...PB13Ultra!!
You want intense mid/low bass slam?...Dual VTF-15H

Both these options are about $2000ish

With your room being sealed, you should get plenty room gain in the LOW bass & the dual VTF-15h subs will go PLENTY low with TONS of headroom, not to mention 5 yes 5 different operational modes. Plus dual subs will even out the response throughout the room if placed properly.

There are many threads & a lot of debate as to whether a single Ultra & dual 15h are comparable. I think the kicker here though is that your room, though large, is sealed. Thats a big plus for you since you dont have bass suckout into other areas. Thats where i think the low bass in-room gain would put the dual 15hs ahead. I just wonder if a single Ultra would give you enough mid/bass slam that makes movies a visceral experience. Too much low bass without the right balance of mid/bass with it can sound slow or sloppy. Im not saying thats how the Ultra would sound, just making that statement.

Both options are wonderful!!!

 

[FirstReflection]

Thus, for the few of us who don't really care as much about the bass below 20Hz, and have the space for dual subs to balance room bass response, the dual FV12 @ $500 each seems to be a better buy than one F15 @ $900 each.

I set my dual D15SE @ 20Hz, instead of 14Hz (which a lot of folks probably do).

Heh, you can count me as one of those "rare" people

I can't hear anything below 18Hz. You can go ahead and play sounds below 18Hz for me if you like. I can't hear 'em!

I really only "worry" about getting good extension down to 20Hz. Anything below that is gravy and much less important to me, personally. For one, I can't hear it. For another, there just isn't all that much content that really goes below 20Hz anyway!

Oh, I know, I know - I say that and then someone always wants to point out all the recordings that have prodigious below 20Hz content. Honestly, not having that stuff doesn't phase me. All the fun "hit you in the chest" stuff is higher up. The super low, below 20Hz stuff isn't even all that tactile! It's like a "tingling" at best and completely imperceivable at worst, so honestly, I just can't be knackered from it. I'll worry about the stuff I can actually hear and the tactile stuff that makes movies and dance music so fun

 

[cpp]

Thus, for the few of us who don't really care as much about the bass below 20Hz,

same here as I can't hear below 20Hz

 

[shadyJ]

I do like having subsonic bass capability, but I don't think its worth sacrificing output in the more audible spectrum. My chief priority is 25 hz and above, where, I'm guessing, more than 95% of the bass content is. A few movies do have some real oomph below 25 hz though, and it is neat effect to be able to playback, so I don't blame the guys who go after that. For me though, there are just not enough deep bass movies that I care about to make that worth the effort.

 

[robdog6942]

You want LOW bass?...PB13Ultra!!
You want intense mid/low bass slam?...Dual VTF-15H

Both these options are about $2000ish

With your room being sealed, you should get plenty room gain in the LOW bass & the dual VTF-15h subs will go PLENTY low with TONS of headroom, not to mention 5 yes 5 different operational modes. Plus dual subs will even out the response throughout the room if placed properly.

There are many threads & a lot of debate as to whether a single Ultra & dual 15h are comparable. I think the kicker here though is that your room, though large, is sealed. Thats a big plus for you since you dont have bass suckout into other areas. Thats where i think the low bass in-room gain would put the dual 15hs ahead. I just wonder if a single Ultra would give you enough mid/bass slam that makes movies a visceral experience. Too much low bass without the right balance of mid/bass with it can sound slow or sloppy. Im not saying thats how the Ultra would sound, just making that statement.

Both options are wonderful!!!

GREAT RESPONSE!!

And how about the PC-13ULTRA, I'd like to conserve floor space up front if possible, and like the smaller footprint of the cylinder sub. The space that the room is being built has an existing brick wall (the old exterior wall), I will probably just paint the brick or maybe even leave it alone, the sub up front will be near the front right corner (close to this wall and a drywalled exterior wall).

 

[Rythmik]

Thus, for the few of us who don't really care as much about the bass below 20Hz, and have the space for dual subs to balance room bass response, the dual FV12 @ $500 each seems to be a better buy than one F15 @ $900 each.

I set my dual D15SE @ 20Hz, instead of 14Hz (which a lot of folks probably do).

Extending low is not so much about what you if you can actually hear that low or not. Human hearing is not linear. So a lot of times, it is the combination of multiple frequency components that make it sound good while you listen each component by itself it becomes annoying or even undetectable. I went to CES listen to one company demoed supertweeter (with frequency response up to 40khz). I know I cannot hear above 18khz with single tone frequency. But in that room, I can clearly hear the difference the supertweeter added to the sound stage to make it sound bigger. If you do a lot of midrange warble tone testing, you will also find the warble tone (which is narrow band multiple signals) sounded much pleasing to our ears than single tone component which is almost like ear-piercing with absolutely no sense of where the sound is from or definition. Extending to 14hz also affects phase response which again can affect sound quality.

Look at CD player playback sampling rate. Early days it was 44khz. Later some companies started using 88khz (which we called over-sampling), then 192khz and these days, some expensive model uses 384khz. But the CD source is same, meaning there is no new information that you can extract with higher playback sampling frequency. In addition, one can always argue that we cannot hear above 18khz, so whatever happened above 18khz is not our concern so the CD player can do without any D/A converter lowpass filter to filter out sampling noise above 18Khz. But that is simply wrong and it is proven in the field. Any CD player without that filter is El Cheapo nickle and dime machine. We need that filter otherwise the sound is nasty. Whether one can hear a particular single tone frequency is up to debate as I have kept saying the hearing capability falls on a statistical curve. I had a classmate in college who can hear up to 25khz single tone signal and we confirmed that in the lab. I think in some discussion, people have overemphsized what they can hear in single tone almost as in mathematics expression. But human hearing does not work that way.