High Resolution Audio

AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Hey All - I am considering some gear to play High Resolution Audio. I would incorporate it into my home system. Any thoughts as to whether it really is better sound quality than CDs? I refer you to this article which highly disputes that:

https://www.kirkville.com/how-the-audio-industry-is-deceiving-consumers-with-high-resolution-audio/

but, I am always open for others' thoughts/opinions.

Thx,

Tom
I recommend using DTS NeuralX or Dolby Surround Upmixer to upmix 2Ch music to sound like Dolby Atmos and DTSX.

I sold all my SACD, DVD-A, and DTS-CD collection. No regrets. :D

I recall the first time I listened to a remix of The X-Files theme song with DTS NeuralX. During the Rainy parts of song, I could hear the water pouring down from the ceiling. :D

 
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JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
To the OP.

Redbook >= Human hearing. The CD medium is completely capable of anything you'll actually perceive in 2-channels.

How well the recording is mixed and leveled is a whole different kettle of wax.

Welcome to MultiCh music. When well mixed: it is amazing; but much of it seems to not make good use of the center (is it perhaps off old quad-channel recordings? I don't know), and it's hard to find these days.

That said: when they get it right... it is sublime.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
You have a pretty nice collection going there and still handing out solid advice regarding "hi res audio".
The "hi res" thing is still lingering and poking around out there making claims. People are still curious.
I understand the desire to get their hands on the "best" source possible. The true answer to "best source" is kinda complex sometimes for all the reasons you already know. That's an effort that seems to have no end.

I guess its part of what makes our hobby interesting. I was watching a TV show the other night and one of the people in the show was in a living room full of old audio gear. He exclaimed "wow, they have a turntable. That's the surest sign of a real audiophile there is". It was an old 1970's or 1980's run of the mill table. In 2019 I can think of a lot of things that indicate high end audio interest and quality more than an old turntable.

Striving for the 'best" quality source would probably be on my list of indicators of a serious audio nut.
We can talk all day about what that really means.
 
CB22

CB22

Senior Audioholic
Hey All - I am considering some gear to play High Resolution Audio. I would incorporate it into my home system. Any thoughts as to whether it really is better sound quality than CDs? I refer you to this article which highly disputes that:

https://www.kirkville.com/how-the-audio-industry-is-deceiving-consumers-with-high-resolution-audio/

but, I am always open for others' thoughts/opinions.

Thx,

Tom
I've spent a lot of time fiddling with this. Matter of fact I actually bought an expensive network steamer to test this out with this. Long story short. CD quality audio vs high res (tidal Masters tracks to be specific) I can hear no difference. I can hear a difference in CD quality vs mp3 though when I critically listen. Most notably the 2 albums that stood out to me were the 'Demon Days' by the Gorillaz and 'Morning Phase' by Beck. I think there is more dynamic range is the CD quality audio than the mp3. I could also hear no difference between the physical CD audio and the CD quality audio streamed. IMO, as long as you have a well-recorded album in 16/44.1 that will give you the best SQ.

I think high res audio 24-96 is more of a marketing ploy for consumer audio, especially in headphones/ DAC markets. Side note, for feature films the industry standard for a sound mixer is to use a Sound Devices or Zaxcom portable recorder, which natively records 24/96 files. However, once the movie gets mixed all the audio gets compressed anyways for the theater and the bluray. So listing 24/96 is only useful if you have the native files, which you will probably never get.

Back to music. Radio head released the native files for their an album 'In Rainbows' for people to re-mix back in 2006/7. If you can get ahold of those native files you can do a test between the naive files and mp3 audio. You'll probably be able to hear a difference.

As of now, up-sampling audio is BS IMO, I can hear no difference. It does not reveal any extra details to my ears. Actually, I will probably offload the 851N soon. lol.
 
B

baronvonellis

Audioholic
I would have to disagree, I've recorded my own music in Pro Tools in 96/24 and then bounced it down to 44/16. I can definitely tell a difference in sound quality. The highs above 8k sound smoother, cymbals are much smoother and have more of a natural shimmer and bright transients stand out more. The dynamics are punchier and the stereo image is more spacious. It makes a difference for the reverb and sense of space in recordings, the reverb appears to spread beyond the speakers, while in 44/16 the sound will narrow closer to the speakers.

When I went to Audio Engineering school we listened to the same Fleetwood Mac song in 96/24, 96/16, 44/24, 44/16 and then MP3. Each time there is a noticeable step down in quality, and the stereo image narrows. Going from 24 bit to 16 bit is a bigger difference than going from 96k to 44k, but you might as well use the best quality, storage is cheap these days. You need good speakers and have good hearing above 10K though. Everyone in our class could hear the difference.

DSD is the best, the highs are so smooth and natural, it sounds the same as analog tape to me. I've recorded music on 2" 24 track tape machines in million dollar studios, so I know what it's supposed to sound like. DSD is the closest you can get to being in the recording studio with the band.
 
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2

2channel lover

Audioholic Field Marshall
Hey All - I am considering some gear to play High Resolution Audio. I would incorporate it into my home system. Any thoughts as to whether it really is better sound quality than CDs? I refer you to this article which highly disputes that:

https://www.kirkville.com/how-the-audio-industry-is-deceiving-consumers-with-high-resolution-audio/

but, I am always open for others' thoughts/opinions.

Thx,

Tom
I'm slowing growing my SACD/Bluray audio collection...roughly a 100 titles now and maybe a dz or so titles I also have in the redbook cd format.

My thoughts...the 1st thing to understand is SACD/BlurayDVD audio files are LARGER audio files more than they are BETTER audio files.

Of those dz or so titles I have both CD and SCAD, some of my 2 ch SACDs are clearly better sounding than the than the CD...notables Abraxas by Santana...I don't know if it was remastered or not, but the distortion in the left ch of the redbook cd is noticeably cleaner on the SACD.

As LovetheHD stated...the wow factor for most SACDs comes in the multi-ch versions. As physical media starts to wind down, we're seeing the larger audio files (24/192, 24/196, 2.8 MHz DSD, etc.) surface for less money than SACD, and Blu-ray.

Due to the cost of SACDs, BR Audio discs, I research more than I normally would for SQ, and content (there are plenty of people out there willing to share their experience) but I don't think I will stop buying them anytime soon. I would suggest investing in a title (preferably one that you already have) and compare for yourself.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
I like Blu-ray Audio or SACD or DVD-AUDIO or even the short lived DTS Music for the multichannel versions. My 5.1 DTS Police disc sounds a lot like my 5.1 SACD Police disc except a couple songs are arranged differently.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I would have to disagree, I've recorded my own music in Pro Tools in 96/24 and then bounced it down to 44/16. I can definitely tell a difference in sound quality. The highs above 8k sound smoother, cymbals are much smoother and have more of a natural shimmer and bright transients stand out more. The dynamics are punchier and the stereo image is more spacious. It makes a difference for the reverb and sense of space in recordings, the reverb appears to spread beyond the speakers, while in 44/16 the sound will narrow closer to the speakers.

When I went to Audio Engineering school we listened to the same Fleetwood Mac song in 96/24, 96/16, 44/24, 44/16 and then MP3. Each time there is a noticeable step down in quality, and the stereo image narrows. Going from 24 bit to 16 bit is a bigger difference than going from 96k to 44k, but you might as well use the best quality, storage is cheap these days. You need good speakers and have good hearing above 10K though. Everyone in our class could hear the difference.

DSD is the best, the highs are so smooth and natural, it sounds the same as analog tape to me. I've recorded music on 2" 24 track tape machines in million dollar studios, so I know what it's supposed to sound like. DSD is the closest you can get to being in the recording studio with the band.
Of course those comparisons were conducted under controlled conditions, right?
Bias controlled, level matched, time aligned, and statistically significant outcome. ;)
 
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S

Shai

Audiophyte
Curious, you exploring multi-ch SACD? That's all I look for personally in that format.
I most definitely started with SACD for multichannel mixes, and while I'll surely exhaust buying up that stuff first, I truly believe I do hear a difference in DSD versus CD or even the Advanced Resolution stuff...I'd really like another listen to the DVD Audio of Fleetwood Mac's "Rumours" before saying this, as I haven't heard the DVD A since 2004, but I'm certain that the SACD multichannel DSD mix is superior. I'm also looking at the SACD for "Tommy" instead of just replacing the DVD A, which was of course breathtaking. And DSD just makes great sense to me, as far as being the best digital format...if the source is bad, obviously, or just throwing out DSD discs, sure a CD could be better.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I most definitely started with SACD for multichannel mixes, and while I'll surely exhaust buying up that stuff first, I truly believe I do hear a difference in DSD versus CD or even the Advanced Resolution stuff...I'd really like another listen to the DVD Audio of Fleetwood Mac's "Rumours" before saying this, as I haven't heard the DVD A since 2004, but I'm certain that the SACD multichannel DSD mix is superior. I'm also looking at the SACD for "Tommy" instead of just replacing the DVD A, which was of course breathtaking. And DSD just makes great sense to me, as far as being the best digital format...if the source is bad, obviously, or just throwing out DSD discs, sure a CD could be better.
DSD has issues, too, and there's a reason it's mostly defunct. If it weren't for the few multich recordings and that my gear already could play them I might not have bothered with SACD at all. I think it is great SACD has multi-ch content as opposed to a redbook cd, tho. I prefer bluray capabilities overall tho there's relatively limited multich music options even there. Even my vinyl of Rumours sounds good, that was a very well-recorded album (and got to see them on that tour, so backed by great concert memories as well so I could be biased :) ). Has been a while since I considered getting a multich version (and haven't heard either SACD or DVD) but seems price was a bit higher than I want to pay last I looked.
 
B

baronvonellis

Audioholic
Lime aligned....equal margaritas? ;)
Haha, good one. Well yes, they were from the exact same recording each time so they were at exactly the same levels. Why is audio the only thing people want double blind tests for? When people review food at restaurants do they insist on a steak from another restaurant that was prepared identically at the same temperature under a black curtain to tell if the food was good or not?

Terrabyte HD's are super cheap these days, why not use the best quality? 44/16 was fine in 1980 when storage was super expensive. Movies are always done in 48/16 so it's not like 44/16 needs to be gospel forever.

I'll agree Tommy SACD is incredible! It's one of the best mulitchannel discs, Pete Townshend personally did the mix as well. It takes the music to a whole new symphonic level. I really wish they would do mulitchannels Beatles mixes. I love the Moody Blues To our Childrens Childrens Childrens SACD as well. It was from a quad mix, and is brilliant. I just got Todd Rungrdgren A Wizard a true Star, and it's annoying they didn't do a multichannel mix, I thought I was getting it in multichannel. For that one the original mix was pretty lousy and the eq and effects must have been printed to tape as the SACD mix doesn't improve things much.

I have a DVD-audio of Yes Fragile and it is terrible. They basically put everything in the LCR and then some terrible digital reverb cuts in at random times in the rears. Using the CD and Dolby Pro logic for surround is better than the mix they did on that. But then I have Yes- Tales from Topographic Oceans, Close to the Edge, and Relayer and all of those mixes were done very well.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
Why is audio the only thing people want double blind tests for? When people review food at restaurants do they insist on a steak from another restaurant that was prepared identically at the same temperature under a black curtain to tell if the food was good or not?
I can see by the number of posts that you are fairly new here (not necessarily new to audio) so I cut you a wide piece of slack and give the you the benefit of the doubt. This topic has been kicked to death here and often gets so contentious people end up leaving the forum or throwing tantrums. We don't need any more of that.

First off, audio isn't the only place people want double blind tests. DBT's are the basis of most types of research where we need to remove the affects of bias. Bias comes in a number of shapes and forms and is particularly rampant in audio reviews and opinions. The Placebo affect and other forms of observer bias are two particular forms that can have a major affect on any sort of A-B test we may wish to do to demonstrate how great some component is in our audio systems. One of the few tools we have to get down underneath those things is a DBT.

One of the chief problems with DBT's is they are difficult to perform correctly, involve money and expense, and most of us forget some key aspect of bias removal and we really don't end up with a good result. @shadyJ does speaker reviews (like subwoofer tests) for AH. Send him a note or ask him sometime how difficult it is to be truly impartial and how rigorous his testing method is. It takes him a LOOOOOONG TIME to put out a test. Not because running a signal to a subwoofer or speaker is hard. But to provide unbiased test results is hard work that takes a ton of time.

Many posters in the area of HD audio, or those who claim to hear differences above redbook CD quality recordings, provide no data to support such claims. They simply "hear what others can't" because , well, they have extraordinary ears. Where extraordinary claims are made (and hearing music outside the range covered by a CD qualifies) then some extraordinary supporting evidence should accompany the claim. Most of the time, it doesn't. Hence the disagreements (sometimes quite heated) over whether HD audio in all its forms really brings anything to the table we can hear.

One other thing I will mention that relates to this is the question "is it audible?" Can I hear it? Audio is rampant with statistics that would lead you to believe one product is superior to another. The problem is in many stats, there is no audible affect: you can't hear the difference. If you can't hear it, does it matter? This is particularly true in the claims of HD audio. There may be technical or statistical differences between a CD recording and an HD one. Are those differences audible?

I am old enough to acknowledge that my ears are no longer candidates to judge the "finer points" of audio discernment. I have been listening long enough to know good recordings and the differences a good recording makes. Good recordings trump media, equipment, room setups, and just about everything else.
I'm happy with that.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I don't read food reviews any more than I read subjective audio gear reviews....just not that useful (but I do like watching cooking shows and reading recipes). Sort of like your sighted hearing claims of various bit depths/rates or claiming the superiority of dsd....meh.

Even if a DBT, it only would show you could tell a difference reliably, not whether one is superior or more accurate.


Haha, good one. Well yes, they were from the exact same recording each time so they were at exactly the same levels. Why is audio the only thing people want double blind tests for? When people review food at restaurants do they insist on a steak from another restaurant that was prepared identically at the same temperature under a black curtain to tell if the food was good or not?

Terrabyte HD's are super cheap these days, why not use the best quality? 44/16 was fine in 1980 when storage was super expensive. Movies are always done in 48/16 so it's not like 44/16 needs to be gospel forever.

I'll agree Tommy SACD is incredible! It's one of the best mulitchannel discs, Pete Townshend personally did the mix as well. It takes the music to a whole new symphonic level. I really wish they would do mulitchannels Beatles mixes. I love the Moody Blues To our Childrens Childrens Childrens SACD as well. It was from a quad mix, and is brilliant. I just got Todd Rungrdgren A Wizard a true Star, and it's annoying they didn't do a multichannel mix, I thought I was getting it in multichannel. For that one the original mix was pretty lousy and the eq and effects must have been printed to tape as the SACD mix doesn't improve things much.

I have a DVD-audio of Yes Fragile and it is terrible. They basically put everything in the LCR and then some terrible digital reverb cuts in at random times in the rears. Using the CD and Dolby Pro logic for surround is better than the mix they did on that. But then I have Yes- Tales from Topographic Oceans, Close to the Edge, and Relayer and all of those mixes were done very well.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
To the OP.

Redbook >= Human hearing. The CD medium is completely capable of anything you'll actually perceive in 2-channels.

How well the recording is mixed and leveled is a whole different kettle of wax.

Welcome to MultiCh music. When well mixed: it is amazing; but much of it seems to not make good use of the center (is it perhaps off old quad-channel recordings? I don't know), and it's hard to find these days.

That said: when they get it right... it is sublime.
Something I always wonder, are most (obviously so do) pop music (including country, rock, heavy metal, basically non-classical and jazz..) use audiophile/hifi/gear with top specs etc.)class mics, cable, processors, preamp/amps, recorders etc. to do recording/mixing?

By pop, I mean enough to reasonably assume the internet hearsay about how just by substituting $1500 AVR with a $1000 integrated amp would make such differences from being immediately obvious, even the wife asked what's done to it, hearing details not there before, there is some sweetness in it, sound stage opens up, further back stage, or forward, make one wants to hear his/her collections all over again etc etc.. if the bottleneck is the recording/mix, let alone media players, speakers and room acoustics. :D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I don't know if it was remastered or not, but the distortion in the left ch of the redbook cd is noticeably cleaner on the SACD.
Until you do, you have no way of knowing what caused the difference, based on logic alone. I have done similar comparison and concluded that not knowing ahead of time, I can expect a better chance the DSD files I buy will have better sound quality. As for the reasons, until proven, I would continue to believe that there simply a higher probability of the typically more expensive DSD files being made from higher quality masters. Based on known facts, theories and logic, it is not the format that makes the difference once you get pass 44.1 kHz/16 bit, not for humans without golden ears anyway.:D
 
2

2channel lover

Audioholic Field Marshall
Until you do, you have no way of knowing what caused the difference, based on logic alone. I have done similar comparison and concluded that not knowing ahead of time, I can expect a better chance the DSD files I buy will have better sound quality. As for the reasons, until proven, I would continue to believe that there simply a higher probability of the typically more expensive DSD files being made from higher quality masters. Based on known facts, theories and logic, it is not the format that makes the difference once you get pass 44.1 kHz/16 bit, not for humans without golden ears anyway.:D
Fair points.
 
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