High Resolution Audio

B

baronvonellis

Audioholic
I can see by the number of posts that you are fairly new here (not necessarily new to audio) so I cut you a wide piece of slack and give the you the benefit of the doubt. This topic has been kicked to death here and often gets so contentious people end up leaving the forum or throwing tantrums. We don't need any more of that.

First off, audio isn't the only place people want double blind tests. DBT's are the basis of most types of research where we need to remove the affects of bias. Bias comes in a number of shapes and forms and is particularly rampant in audio reviews and opinions. The Placebo affect and other forms of observer bias are two particular forms that can have a major affect on any sort of A-B test we may wish to do to demonstrate how great some component is in our audio systems. One of the few tools we have to get down underneath those things is a DBT.

One of the chief problems with DBT's is they are difficult to perform correctly, involve money and expense, and most of us forget some key aspect of bias removal and we really don't end up with a good result. @shadyJ does speaker reviews (like subwoofer tests) for AH. Send him a note or ask him sometime how difficult it is to be truly impartial and how rigorous his testing method is. It takes him a LOOOOOONG TIME to put out a test. Not because running a signal to a subwoofer or speaker is hard. But to provide unbiased test results is hard work that takes a ton of time.

Many posters in the area of HD audio, or those who claim to hear differences above redbook CD quality recordings, provide no data to support such claims. They simply "hear what others can't" because , well, they have extraordinary ears. Where extraordinary claims are made (and hearing music outside the range covered by a CD qualifies) then some extraordinary supporting evidence should accompany the claim. Most of the time, it doesn't. Hence the disagreements (sometimes quite heated) over whether HD audio in all its forms really brings anything to the table we can hear.

One other thing I will mention that relates to this is the question "is it audible?" Can I hear it? Audio is rampant with statistics that would lead you to believe one product is superior to another. The problem is in many stats, there is no audible affect: you can't hear the difference. If you can't hear it, does it matter? This is particularly true in the claims of HD audio. There may be technical or statistical differences between a CD recording and an HD one. Are those differences audible?

I am old enough to acknowledge that my ears are no longer candidates to judge the "finer points" of audio discernment. I have been listening long enough to know good recordings and the differences a good recording makes. Good recordings trump media, equipment, room setups, and just about everything else.
I'm happy with that.
Ok, I understand what your saying. But to me I can hear a difference and I enjoy it, and there are technical differences between the two. People like different types of speakers, I don't think most people pick out speakers with a double blind test. Does that mean that the speaker they like is wrong to them? If they enjoy it what's the harm? I can flip back and forth through identical audio files other than the bit rate and hear a difference. Most people don't even have the ability to do that when choosing audio gear for example. They buy an amp that they hear in a shop and then compare it to their amp at home with different speakers and music. If I didn't hear a difference I wouldn't bother. SACD's are really expensive now, and I wouldn't bother with them if I didn't get enjoyment from them or if I thought they were the same. I'd much rather stick with a cheaper option. Audioholics do great reviews that are helpful, but they don't review everything. I'm wondering why they did a preview of the Salk Song 3 in 2016 but then never did a full review. It seems like they do alot of previews of things.

HD audio is subtle, I admit it's not a huge difference. It's mostly in the upper air and reverb, and cymbals. That's what give you a sense space and stereo separation in the recording. CD audio only has 2 data points for 20khz or only a couple data points for stuff above 12 khz. That can't accurately recreate a natural analog 12khz sound wave for a cymbal.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
People like different types of speakers, I don't think most people pick out speakers with a double blind test. Does that mean that the speaker they like is wrong to them? If they enjoy it what's the harm?

CD audio only has 2 data points for 20khz or only a couple data points for stuff above 12 khz. That can't accurately recreate a natural analog 12khz sound wave for a cymbal.
I am pretty sure I understand your position and claim. I would say however that your comment about "wrong" is just simply not part of the situation. There is no right or wrong here. No one that makes a choice for a piece of audio gear is wrong. There is no moral compass involved. If a listener enjoys purchasing HD audio selections, there is nothing wrong with it. Neither is it more correct, or right, to choose a CD or vinyl LP for a particular selection.

I don't mind, its actually none of my business, if somebody really likes and invests in super expensive audio gear. I have a friend who shelled out $30,000 for a pair of speakers. The next year (he had to wait for it to be hand built) he shelled out another $25,000 for a pure 2 channel power amp. (didn't even get a pre-amp for that price). He also listens almost exclusively to classical music recordings. His only concession to "modern" in his audio world is that he does have an OPPO cd player and most of what he listens to is on a CD these days.

Does it make him "wrong" because I could duplicate the sound of his system for pennies on the dollar? Not at all. I love the fact he invested in something he truly loves. I know the man and he worked his entire working life to save up the money for that big spend. He loves what he has. I love the fact he gets such a big kick out of it.

Your last line about CD quality can't recreate a sound wave for a cymbal is a statement without any facts or support. Sound production (striking a cymbal) and sound re-production (playing the recorded sound of a cymbal) are two different creatures. Its another lengthy discussion. What I will say is that it illustrates a question for me. Striking a cymbal can create sound waves as high as 60khz. I don't know what recording medium can reach that high. I am not a recording guru (there are plenty around the AH) so I don't know how instruments with really long tails to their spectrum get handled. Cymbals can't be the only examples.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
.... CD audio only has 2 data points for 20khz or only a couple data points for stuff above 12 khz. That can't accurately recreate a natural analog 12khz sound wave for a cymbal.
Oh, really? Based on what evidence? Facts please, not conjectures, what you think may be.
Have you ever seen a O-scope picture of a 20kHz digital sine wave? Have a look.
...
Your last line about CD quality can't recreate a sound wave for a cymbal is a statement without any facts or support. Sound production (striking a cymbal) and sound re-production (playing the recorded sound of a cymbal) are two different creatures. Its another lengthy discussion. What I will say is that it illustrates a question for me. Striking a cymbal can create sound waves as high as 60khz. I don't know what recording medium can reach that high. I am not a recording guru (there are plenty around the AH) so I don't know how instruments with really long tails to their spectrum get handled. Cymbals can't be the only examples.
Yes, some instruments have harmonics into the ultrasonic band. We cannot hear it, and no credible evidence that it makes a hill of beans when it is cut at 22.5 kHz and above.
 

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