High Quality 2.1 Channel System for Family Room

TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
A nice surprise here is the lovely space the family room has turend out to be. Extended capability has been given to the system that was in our basement at our Benedict Lake home.

This space was primarily the the grandchildren and as a living room/kitchenette for guests.

The room at the lake was a big space and very live, with a pronounced echo. Despite that the system gave a good account of itself.

Well I had a pleasnt surprise in that the system sounds ravishingly good in this new space. This is a space I have greatly enjoyed.

I don't know if these photographs can do it justice.







A great place to enjoy music fireside.



There is lots of natural light and a good view.



The kitchen



When the entry door is closed this is an enclosed space with no other openings.

The system is completed with a couple of isobarik coupled cavity subs.





So the equipment list is a Wii game player,

Oppo BDP-83 BD player from the Benedict AV room

Quad FM 4

Quad 44 preamp for superb LP playback.

Thorens TD 125 MK II turntable wih SME series 3 PU arm and Shure V15 xmr phono cartridge. This I think is really an absolutely optimal combination for LP playback.

Marants aV 7701 from the Benedict AV room

Chromecast

Comcast TV

Quad 909 power amp.

Quad 405-2 for the subs.

APC smart UPS.

Themostaically controlled cooling fans which have never turned.

Panasonic 55" Plasma TV from our Eagan Townhome

Of this list only the fan system and Smart UPS are new acquisitions.

The speakers were built for the lower level of our Lake home 13 years ago. I'm really fond of these speakers. The quality is very comparble to the B & W 800 D3 my friend Phil has. They do not have the 800s spl level though. In terms of SQ though I don't think they give any thing up to the best around.

-

The drivers are a mylar planar ribbon unit from Hi - Vi. These units have to be crossed high with a sharp cut off, otherwise they are rouh with high distortion.

The mid is the long lamented Dynaudio D 76 dome.

1582410375361.jpeg


I don't know why we have not had more units like this available. The only others are the ATC unit, not generally avialable and the Volt unit which is a shameless copy of the ATC unit and very expensive.

The Dynaudio unit is ruler flat pretty much from 400 Hz to 4KHz, with sharp roll offs at each end.

The Bass unit is the great KEF B 139 of which so many are fond. This is one of the greatest bass drivers of all time and still highly sought after. It digs deep. However it is fairly insensitive. I think I have mentioned often the inverse relationship between bass extension and sensitivity.



The speakers are highly braced and are slightly overdamped B4 ported enclosures.

The subs I built mid 80s. Subs were rare back then. I built them to accompany he speakers that are now my rear backs. At that time coupled cavity bass alignments were in vogue.

They do have the advanatge that you can precisely set Qts. However as you lower Q bandwidth is reduced. Anyhow I only needed a 25 to 80 Hz or so bandwidth. The drivers are old 12 inch Emminence sub drivers, and in no way comparable to modern subs. So these are not high spl subs by a long shot. However they complement the mian speakers and do not have to be pushed hard. They are clean and not boomer. There are two 12' drivers in each box, since these are isobarik speakers to make them compact.

One disadvantage of these is that sound radiation from the cone is lost. It is all from the port.

So how does it measure.

The impedance and phase angles of the main speakers.

The FR and impulse curve of the main speakers.



I think the rise at 50 to 30 KHz is an artefact of close mic (2M) measurement. The D 76 does have a slight hint of a BBC "Smiley". This is not unatractive. Note the extended impulse response from the fourth order LR crossovers causing time smear.

This is the FR at my choice listening position be the fire.



This is the FR of the subs.



So enough bandwidth to do the job. The subs are cut in below at 40 Hz to extend the mains. So setting is LFE + Main.

So there you have it. A very pleasant system and a realy nice LP system.
 
S

shkumar4963

Audioholic
A nice surprise here is the lovely space the family room has turend out to be. Extended capability has been given to the system that was in our basement at our Benedict Lake home.

This space was primarily the the grandchildren and as a living room/kitchenette for guests.

The room at the lake was a big space and very live, with a pronounced echo. Despite that the system gave a good account of itself.

Well I had a pleasnt surprise in that the system sounds ravishingly good in this new space. This is a space I have greatly enjoyed.

I don't know if these photographs can do it justice.







A great place to enjoy music fireside.



There is lots of natural light and a good view.



The kitchen



When the entry door is closed this is an enclosed space with no other openings.

The system is completed with a couple of isobarik coupled cavity subs.





So the equipment list is a Wii game player,

Oppo BDP-83 BD player from the Benedict AV room

Quad FM 4

Quad 44 preamp for superb LP playback.

Thorens TD 125 MK II turntable wih SME series 3 PU arm and Shure V15 xmr phono cartridge. This I think is really an absolutely optimal combination for LP playback.

Marants aV 7701 from the Benedict AV room

Chromecast

Comcast TV

Quad 909 power amp.

Quad 405-2 for the subs.

APC smart UPS.

Themostaically controlled cooling fans which have never turned.

Panasonic 55" Plasma TV from our Eagan Townhome

Of this list only the fan system and Smart UPS are new acquisitions.

The speakers were built for the lower level of our Lake home 13 years ago. I'm really fond of these speakers. The quality is very comparble to the B & W 800 D3 my friend Phil has. They do not have the 800s spl level though. In terms of SQ though I don't think they give any thing up to the best around.

-

The drivers are a mylar planar ribbon unit from Hi - Vi. These units have to be crossed high with a sharp cut off, otherwise they are rouh with high distortion.

The mid is the long lamented Dynaudio D 76 dome.

View attachment 34187

I don't know why we have not had more units like this available. The only others are the ATC unit, not generally avialable and the Volt unit which is a shameless copy of the ATC unit and very expensive.

The Dynaudio unit is ruler flat pretty much from 400 Hz to 4KHz, with sharp roll offs at each end.

The Bass unit is the great KEF B 139 of which so many are fond. This is one of the greatest bass drivers of all time and still highly sought after. It digs deep. However it is fairly insensitive. I think I have mentioned often the inverse relationship between bass extension and sensitivity.



The speakers are highly braced and are slightly overdamped B4 ported enclosures.

The subs I built mid 80s. Subs were rare back then. I built them to accompany he speakers that are now my rear backs. At that time coupled cavity bass alignments were in vogue.

They do have the advanatge that you can precisely set Qts. However as you lower Q bandwidth is reduced. Anyhow I only needed a 25 to 80 Hz or so bandwidth. The drivers are old 12 inch Emminence sub drivers, and in no way comparable to modern subs. So these are not high spl subs by a long shot. However they complement the mian speakers and do not have to be pushed hard. They are clean and not boomer. There are two 12' drivers in each box, since these are isobarik speakers to make them compact.

One disadvantage of these is that sound radiation from the cone is lost. It is all from the port.

So how does it measure.

The impedance and phase angles of the main speakers.

The FR and impulse curve of the main speakers.



I think the rise at 50 to 30 KHz is an artefact of close mic (2M) measurement. The D 76 does have a slight hint of a BBC "Smiley". This is not unatractive. Note the extended impulse response from the fourth order LR crossovers causing time smear.

This is the FR at my choice listening position be the fire.



This is the FR of the subs.



So enough bandwidth to do the job. The subs are cut in below at 40 Hz to extend the mains. So setting is LFE + Main.

So there you have it. A very pleasant system and a realy nice LP system.
Great system. Thank you for sharing. Did you do any room treatment other than book shelves?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
Great system. Thank you for sharing. Did you do any room treatment other than book shelves?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
No I did not. However almost all of the walls are concrete. The front wall behind the system is the shared wall with the front AV room, and so that has heavy fill/dampening inside. There is no acousic bleed through between the rooms.

Really that system was basically for the grandchildren. I never thought I would be using it to the extent I have. But it does show that you can enjoy a wide variety of program on a two channel system. There is no center, but voice clarity is excelelnt. Agian the nidrange driver, which is a really good one, is handling the whole speech discrimination band. That pays off as speech clarity and intelligibility is far better than from most dedicated centers.
 
S

shkumar4963

Audioholic
No I did not. However almost all of the walls are concrete. The front wall behind the system is the shared wall with the front AV room, and so that has heavy fill/dampening inside. There is no acousic bleed through between the rooms.

Really that system was basically for the grandchildren. I never thought I would be using it to the extent I have. But it does show that you can enjoy a wide variety of program on a two channel system. There is no center, but voice clarity is excelelnt. Agian the nidrange driver, which is a really good one, is handling the whole speech discrimination band. That pays off as speech clarity and intelligibility is far better than from most dedicated centers.
Thank you. I agree.

I have a 4.1 system with Denon 3500h, parasound hca 750a, ls50, q100 and SVS sb12 nsd.

I am looking to improve sound quality and looking for some ideas where I should invest next.

One area I think I am lacking is clarity below 1K or 800 hz. Just a feeling!!!

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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
Thank you. I agree.

I have a 4.1 system with Denon 3500h, parasound hca 750a, ls50, q100 and SVS sb12 nsd.

I am looking to improve sound quality and looking for some ideas where I should invest next.

One area I think I am lacking is clarity below 1K or 800 hz. Just a feeling!!!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
I assume you are referring to speech clarity, and since this is 4.1 you have no center.

Feelings don't get you very far in deciding a course of action for improvement. Data Does.

Anyhow, what speakers are you using?

If speech clarity is a problem then there are multiple causes. As far as speech discimination goes the FR to focus on is 400 Hz to 3.5 and even 4KHz.
 
S

shkumar4963

Audioholic
I assume you are referring to speech clarity, and since this is 4.1 you have no center.

Feelings don't get you very far in deciding a course of action for improvement. Data Does.

Anyhow, what speakers are you using?

If speech clarity is a problem then there are multiple causes. As far as speech discimination goes the FR to focus on is 400 Hz to 3.5 and even 4KHz.
it addition to speech clarity, It is the bass clarity and bass authority that are of concern.

Seems like sound smearing is going on.

Maybe I should have said 300 hz and below.

I use LS50 (kef).

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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
it addition to speech clarity, It is the bass clarity and bass authority that are of concern.

Seems like sound smearing is going on.

Maybe I should have said 300 hz and below.

I use LS50 (kef).

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
I really don't know what you have done. I have heard those speakers and the last word I would use to describe them would be muddy and lacking clarity. If anything I would describe them as slightly on the "brittle" side. However my impression of them was generally favorable.

Now do you have Audyssey EQ engaged or any of its ghastly accutriments like Dynamic Eq? If you do turn them off!
 
S

shkumar4963

Audioholic
I really don't know what you have done. I have heard those speakers and the last word I would use to describe them would be muddy and lacking clarity. If anything I would describe them as slightly on the "brittle" side. However my impression of them was generally favorable.

Now do you have Audyssey EQ engaged or any of its ghastly accutriments like Dynamic Eq? If you do turn them off!
Thank you. Here are my thoughts before having done any measurement.

1. Better sub woofer to be able to have better resolution bass. I currently have one SVS sb 12 nsd.

2. Room Treatment to reduce reflections that may be smearing the sound. I currently have none.

What measurements would you suggest that I make to better understand what will improve the sound quality?

3.

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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
Thank you. Here are my thoughts before having done any measurement.

1. Better sub woofer to be able to have better resolution bass. I currently have one SVS sb 12 nsd.

2. Room Treatment to reduce reflections that may be smearing the sound. I currently have none.

What measurements would you suggest that I make to better understand what will improve the sound quality?

3.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Well bass from a sub never sounds defined.

I suspect however that your problem may well be nothing more then having your sub way too loud. I find when I hear people's systems the sound is ruined by sub or subs far too loud. Nothing upsets clarity and makes the sound muddy like a sub too loud.

The next thing in a small room the crossover to the sub may be too high. I think the recommendation to set the sub crossover to 80 Hz may be wrong in a lot of cases, especially in small rooms. The problem is that small rooms often have a lot of room gain from reflection reinforcement in the 60 to HZ range and then you get "crossover gain" at the crossover frequency.

So if turning the sub down does not do the trick then try setting the crossover lower as well.

I'm not a fan of acoustic treatments per se. In your case the frequencies at which troublesome reflections will be occurring in can not be cured with acoustic treatments other then may be bass traps.

My strong hunch after what you say, is that your issue stems from the crossover to your sub. There is nothing wrong with the sub you have.

I discussed this issue at length recently in this thread.

If you want to do the measurements seen in these threads, including the ones in my recent three threads of my systems, then you will need Omni mic and or REW. But you can't begin without a USB measuring microphone.
 
S

shkumar4963

Audioholic
Well bass from a sub never sounds defined.

I suspect however that your problem may well be nothing more then having your sub way too loud. I find when I hear people's systems the sound is ruined by sub or subs far too loud. Nothing upsets clarity and makes the sound muddy like a sub too loud.

The next thing in a small room the crossover to the sub may be too high. I think the recommendation to set the sub crossover to 80 Hz may be wrong in a lot of cases, especially in small rooms. The problem is that small rooms often have a lot of room gain from reflection reinforcement in the 60 to HZ range and then you get "crossover gain" at the crossover frequency.

So if turning the sub down does not do the trick then try setting the crossover lower as well.

I'm not a fan of acoustic treatments per se. In your case the frequencies at which troublesome reflections will be occurring in can not be cured with acoustic treatments other then may be bass traps.

My strong hunch after what you say, is that your issue stems from the crossover to your sub. There is nothing wrong with the sub you have.

I discussed this issue at length recently in this thread.

If you want to do the measurements seen in these threads, including the ones in my recent three threads of my systems, then you will need Omni mic and or REW. But you can't begin without a USB measuring microphone.
Thanks. I will implement some of the things you suggested and report back. I have used REW and EMM6. Will dig it out from the garage.

I agree about room treatment not being effective at bass but was hoping that may help above 1k. It is hard to tell what is the source of my dissatisfaction. Maybe measurements will help, especially decay measurements.

Crossover is set at 80 because (I feel) ls50 can not play too loud at that frequency. The cone displacement seems to be very excessive.

I want to improve the sound quality further and am looking for ways to do that.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks. I will implement some of the things you suggested and report back. I have used REW and EMM6. Will dig it out from the garage.

I agree about room treatment not being effective at bass but was hoping that may help above 1k. It is hard to tell what is the source of my dissatisfaction. Maybe measurements will help, especially decay measurements.

Crossover is set at 80 because (I feel) ls50 can not play too loud at that frequency. The cone displacement seems to be very excessive.

I want to improve the sound quality further and am looking for ways to do that.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
I would bet because of room gain your ls50s are playing louder then you think at 80 Hz and below because of room gain.

How does you system sound if you turn the sub off completely? I would be prepared to bet that your sound is NOT muddy then.
 
S

shkumar4963

Audioholic
I would bet because of room gain your ls50s are playing louder then you think at 80 Hz and below because of room gain.

How does you system sound if you turn the sub off completely? I would be prepared to bet that your sound is NOT muddy then.
Will try and report back.

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