High Instantaneous Current Amp Spec

[thxgoon]

The AVR7300 put out the same power as the RX-Z9 and is less than half the price of the RX-Z9

Wow, that's impressive. But it doesn't necessarily mean it will sound better. There's a lot more at play than an amps' output ability. If you just want to play you speakers loud, a solid 50watts will probably play as loud as you want.

 

[Votrax]

Wow, that's impressive. But it doesn't necessarily mean it will sound better. There's a lot more at play than an amps' output ability. If you just want to play you speakers loud, a solid 50watts will probably play as loud as you want.

I've never heard the AVR7300, but I have heard the AVR7200 and it sounded superb. It may not have the bells and whistles of some of the others, but it's a heck of a deal for a quality AV receiver.

 

[Yamahaluver]

High amperage or not, the Yamaha sounds far more accurate than HK given the right speakers, years back, I bought top of the line HK Citation21, had good amount of background noise so I changed the piece, even then the noise persisted, the accuracy wast just not there, actually my Krell KSA 150 sounded better, got rid of my HK and bought a Yamaha MX-1000, all the power you need from huge twin 750VA transformers and 200,000 mF of capacitance, all the music I needed.

My Z-9 is the same story, it retains the Yamaha signature which some hate and some like, to me and to many, nothing comes close to it.

 

[Khellandros66]

Ok ladies and germs basically what it boils down to is that All Channels Driven following Dobly or THX Standards are tested using 75dB Pink noise. Therefore any company claiming ###W x 7 20Hz-20kHz is already lying... because the dynamics of frequecy change per octave the rise and fall in wattage will occur to maintain the 75dB rating. Plus if my ears deceive me pink noise is definitely not 20Hz-20kHz...that would mean it's a sine wav and not pink noise.

I imagine an electrical engineer around here can explain how varying levels of wattage can be obtained based off of Amperage, Voltage and Impedence (Gene??)

~Bob

 

[Khellandros66]

You know you can furthure test this out using a multimeter and a frequency response generator or perhaps an oscilliscope these are more real world methods this test would require three things
a control (Yamaha) hooked up to a conditioned source and a HK tested on both conditioned and unconditioned sources..

~Bob

 

[MDS]

Ok ladies and germs basically what it boils down to is that All Channels Driven ollowing Dobly or THX Standards are tested using 75dB Pink noise. Therefore any company claiming ###W x 7 20Hz-20kHz is already lying... because the dynamics of frequecy change per octave the rise and fall in wattage willoccur to maintain the 75dB rating. Plus if my ears deceive me pink noise is definitely not 20Hz-20kHz...that would mean it's a sine wav and not pink noise.

~Bob

Wow, that is a very bold claim and yet it is pretty much entirely incorrect:

1. There is no such thing as 75 dB Pink Noise until a test tone is amplified. Dolby standards for reference level is 85 dB output SPL when the tone is at -20 dB (85+20=105 dB peak). 75 dB is only the target if the tone is at -30 dB, as in the receiver's internal test tones.

2. An octave is a doubling or halving of frequency and has nothing to do with wattage.

3. Pink Noise has equal amplitude at every octave. So a test tone recorded at -20 dB will be 20 dB below full scale at 10Hz, 20 Hz, 40 Hz, etc all the way up to 20 kHz.

4. When the receiver is rated at a given power level from 20 Hz - 20 kHz that means it was tested with full bandwidth pink noise. Only the 1 kHz tests, which are of course suspect anyway, would be a sine wave. The manufacturer is only lying if they state all channels driven and very few do even though alot of people think they 'should'.

 

[Dan Banquer]

High Instantaneous Current

To All:
It is my sincere hope that every Audioholic and the Audioholic moderators read this article carefully as I hoping to dispell 20 to 25 years of myth and hearsay and concentrate on what's important.
Dan Banquer

 

[mtrycrafts]

To All:
It is my sincere hope that every Audioholic and the Audioholic moderators read this article carefully as I hoping to dispell 20 to 25 years of myth and hearsay and concentrate on what's important.
Dan Banquer

Not sure which article you are referring to, or is it MDS' response?

 

[HookedOnSound]

marketing does not help

What doesn't help about "High Current" is the fact that industry is general also promotes this. I just checked a couple of retail websites and some receivers are listed with the feature "high current".

It would be really interesting to know from mfg's what their definition of High Current is?

What we need is some kind of certification label/spec associated with a power measurement scheme in which all vendors can expect to attain predictable and verifiable measurement results (also from independent sources).

As an example, something like the PC industry where performance is a hard tangent to quantify, simply measuring the speed of a processor is not enough to adequately gauge performance. Therefore a combination of results could be totalled together to represent some kind of benchmark (measured in units). Sounds good? (sorry for the pun)

 

[mtrycrafts]

Oh

To All:
It is my sincere hope that every Audioholic and the Audioholic moderators read this article carefully as I hoping to dispell 20 to 25 years of myth and hearsay and concentrate on what's important.
Dan Banquer

With the way where your response fell, it wasn't obvious to me
But, the article in the original thread is indeed very interesting to be sure. I agree

 

[gene]

As an example, something like the PC industry where performance is a hard tangent to quantify, simply measuring the speed of a processor is not enough to adequately gauge performance. Therefore a combination of results could be totalled together to represent some kind of benchmark (measured in units).

Well there kinda is. If an amp can nearly double its power when halving its impedance than its as close to an ideal voltage source as possible and certainly qualifies as a "high current" amplifier design. This is a big demand to place on receivers that very few other than flagships such as the Denon 5805 or Yamaha Z9 can pass, especially below 4 ohms. However if you are running speakers with 1-2 ohm dips in frequency ranges below 10kHz then you will likely need a monster amp, NOT a receiver.

 

[mtrycrafts]

What doesn't help about "High Current" is the fact that industry is general also promotes this. I just checked a couple of retail websites and some receivers are listed with the feature "high current".

It would be really interesting to know from mfg's what their definition of High Current is?

What we need is some kind of certification label/spec associated with a power measurement scheme in which all vendors can expect to attain predictable and verifiable measurement results (also from independent sources).

As an example, something like the PC industry where performance is a hard tangent to quantify, simply measuring the speed of a processor is not enough to adequately gauge performance. Therefore a combination of results could be totalled together to represent some kind of benchmark (measured in units). Sounds good? (sorry for the pun)

The industry already has FTC standards to follow in rating amps. There is no such rule for high current, so it has no real meaning. Unfortunately the customer will not know this, unless they read AH
So, in the end, consumers need to use more skepticism in the marketplace, in all of them.

 

[HookedOnSound]

Ah yes, those wonderful FTC standards.

So standard in fact that everyone is publishing values according to their interpretations.

mtrycrafts, I understand what you are saying about amps but I was trying to focus more on published power specs by mfgs in respect to receiver output. In this regard, I find much to be desired.

Sincerely,

 

[mtrycrafts]

Ah yes, those wonderful FTC standards.

So standard in fact that everyone is publishing values according to their interpretations.

mtrycrafts, I understand what you are saying about amps but I was trying to focus more on published power specs by mfgs in respect to receiver output. In this regard, I find much to be desired.Sincerely,

If the maker makes false claims about power, that is actionable with the FTC, isn't it? Eventually FTC will act, or the State Attorney general may. After all, Colorado went after a laundry soap claim for a blue liquid in a sealed, plastic ball.

Maybe you can give an example?

 

[Dan Banquer]

Ftc

I would be shocked if the FTC went after anything in audio today. They did nothing with the snake oil end of the cable industry and I expect nothing from them in any other part of consumer audio.
d.b.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I would be shocked if the FTC went after anything in audio today. They did nothing with the snake oil end of the cable industry and I expect nothing from them in any other part of consumer audio.
d.b.

They don't have rules for cable. The ads skirt the real claims in murky language that is nothing but flowers. Amps do have rules at least. Perhaps if there is enough complaints with merit, they may do something?

 

[Dan Banquer]

Ftc

With the oil companies reaping billions of dollars of profit, and drug companies doing the same, tell me what's more important, audio amps or oil and drugs?
With federal budgets being slashed and the national debt skyrocketing, you need to ask yourself what are the governments first priorities? I think audio is near last on that list. It's buyer beware.
d.b.

 

[Audioholics]

I would be shocked if the FTC went after anything in audio today. They did nothing with the snake oil end of the cable industry and I expect nothing from them in any other part of consumer audio.

Of course the problem is that it's a "victimless" crime - at least until the consumers come here, do some reading, and then get really mad.

 

[toquemon]

.....Dan, you left out, "with appropriated funds disappearing".....there will come a day, Gentlemen, quite possibly soon.....(would have been a good steam vent pop, haha).....

Our Social Security System suffered a breakdown for that reason like ten years ago. We had to copy the pension model of Chile and I think you will eventually do the same thing. Now we're trying to change our Health System because it's going to the same place the SS went. It costs a LOT OF MONEY for the Federal Government to stay the way you are now and it will explode with major consequences, just the way it happened in Mexico. This is the result of the irresponsability of the government and the politicians. Sometimes tough decisions have to be made and some people are not willing to take the political costs of theese actions.

Well, returning to the subject, this High Current Amp Spec seems trivial when you can see and feel the amp. A good amp is heavy, with big transformer, heat sinks and that, for sure, will give you enough power to drive difficult loads.

Big transformer, big heatsinks, substancial capacitance = No problems

 

[ZoFo]

Great!

It costs a LOT OF MONEY for the Federal Government to stay the way you are now and it will explode with major consequences, just the way it happened in Mexico. This is the result of the irresponsability of the government and the politicians. Sometimes tough decisions have to be made and some people are not willing to take the political costs of theese actions.

I guess we can always swim across the Rio Grande and get jobs & free health care in Mexico!