Hi, my name is Justin and I have never owned a subwoofer.

[hjustin]

I'm looking to buy my first subwoofer. This is my current situation:

L/R: Paradigm Monitor 7 V1
C: Paradigm CC-350
LS/RS: Not currently installed

Receiver: Denon AVR-591 (5.1; 75W @ 8 ohms)

Also in my closet: 1 pair Paradigm Atoms; 1 pair Paradigm Micros; 1 pair Paradigm Monitor 3s (all V1)

Room: 21' x 12' x 8' (just over 2000 cu ft); virtually no treatments; laminate flooring

My wife and I worked for years in management at local movie theaters. We are 80/20 movies/music. We both long for that big, effortless theater sound and we're not even close (and I don't know if that's even possible in our living room). At reasonably high volume, my fronts (set to full bandwidth presently) are bottoming out when a given movie digs deep. Finally got to see Casino Royale recently. It was an exercise, adjusting the volume throughout, up for quiet dialogue, down for action scenes.

Now I'm looking for a subwoofer to handle low-end duty. I'd like to set the crossover on my front speakers somewhere between 60 and 80Hz, giving them a break and also reducing the burden on the Denon.

There are only three local retailers in my neck of the woods. One of those is Magnolia. The other two are locally owned. I went to both and explained my situation and here is what I was told:

#1: I could replace my venerable Paradigms with some new Def Tech 8040s and accompanying bipole surrounds. I wouldn't need a center channel because I tell my Denon to send the center channel info to the Def Techs. No need for a sub either because the 8040s have subs in them. I did demo these with a few minutes of third Transformers movie and a music video. They sounded good...much better than my stuff at home.

#2: I explained my situation. Fifteen minutes later I found myself in a demo room listening to a music CD on a nice pair of Focals, driven by a tube amp. The CD was playing in a $15K Moon CD "transport". Got to hear the same with an unknown Blu-ray player and a $2600 Integra receiver. Sure, I could tell a difference between the high-end separates and the Integra receiver. The Focals sounded wonderful. But I had told the guy I was mostly interested in theater. Music is not a priority. I asked for subwoofer suggestions. He recommended a few REL models. I asked him about SVS and HSU and he had never heard of either. They didn't have anything else for me to demo because most of their showroom stuff was at a local home show.

#1 (again): Reiterated my current setup and what I was hoping to achieve. I asked what subs they recommended in the $500 range. He suggested a Definitive Technologies Prosub 1000. Couldn't listen to one. None on display but in stock if I wanted to buy one. I told him I would let him know.

#3: Made the 40 minute drive to Magnolia. Listened to the Def Tech Prosub 1000. I thought it sounded pretty good. I know I absolutely have to get a subwoofer. Having gone so many years without is, perhaps, the audio equivalent of watching a black and white television. I'm missing out on so much.

And so, after all this nonsense, I am here to solicit the opinions of this forum, which I have only recently discovered. Is there anything in the $500 range that will work for my room? If I'm increase my budget to $750, what doors does that open? Will a sub give new life to my existing speakers or is it time to think about retiring the old V1 Paradigms for something new and fantastic?

Thanks for reading.
Justin

 

[slipperybidness]

The Def Techs are nice (if not the most accurate), but you will not be satisfied for movies. The built in subs will be good for most music, but forget about those doing the heavy lifting for movies.

Paradigms aren't particularly well regarded on this forum in general, but there are a few of us that own them and like them. Just don't be surprised when people tell you to ditch those. I've always been fairly impressed with Paradigm, but I haven't had a lot of experience with them.

If you provide more details on room size etc, you will have someone come along and really get it sorted out for you.

But, for $750 here's some to consider
PB12-NSD - SVS

VTF-3 MK4 Subwoofer

 

[brianedm]

The Def Techs are nice (if not the most accurate), but you will not be satisfied for movies. The built in subs will be good for most music, but forget about those doing the heavy lifting for movies.

Paradigms aren't particularly well regarded on this forum in general, but there are a few of us that own them and like them. Just don't be surprised when people tell you to ditch those. I've always been fairly impressed with Paradigm, but I haven't had a lot of experience with them.

If you provide more details on room size etc, you will have someone come along and really get it sorted out for you.

But, for $750 here's some to consider
PB12-NSD - SVS

VTF-3 MK4 Subwoofer

Seconded on the pb12-nsd. One of those completely transformed the movie watching experience for me. 2 is just mind blowing at times. I'm sure the HSU would be very close in terms of quality. The audioholics review of the pb12-nsd basically said it was the cheapest you could get a true reference subwoofer. If you've worked in the movie theater industry you'll definitely be able to appreciate that.

 

[Grador]

I am a fan of paradigms, but feel that most of the ones I've heard have been lacking in the movie department. The best I can describe it is that I find them to sound almost to clear making movies seem somewhat artificial. That said I've never heard anything older than a v4 but I've been told that the monitor series sounds...like a monitor series through and through.

That said I would most certainly get a subwoofer and set up those surrounds before even contemplating ditching your speakers. A good subwoofer will sound good with any speakers, so there is no downside in seeing if that .1 brings your setup to life.

 

[shadyJ]

I would go for a Hsu VTF3 mk4 or this Power Sound Audio sub, the XV15. In a 2000 cubic foot room though, a Hsu VTF2 would probably be more than enough, and would go easier on your budget. I like how a guy who sells subwoofers has never heard of Hsu or SVS, it's no wonder he is selling a $15k CD player.

 

[hjustin]

Thanks guys for the thoughts and comments. I'm going to research the HSU and SVS more closely this evening. I hope to buy something this week. I've never seen Quantum of Solace and I refuse to watch it until I get a sub. Gotta be ready for when Skyfall comes out!

The local sales guys were very nice but I think they're more accustomed to dealing with people who do no research and just want a turnkey installation in their giant, upscale homes. They probably don't care if I buy anything or not.

I just wish I could actually experience one of the subs before purchase. Would it be creepy to canvas the forum for an SVS or HSU owner in the Dayton area that would be willing to give me a demo?

Thanks!

 

[GranteedEV]

You can't demo a sub because its sound will be created by the room you put it in. All you will hear at a demo is the room room room ROOM!

Just get two of the sub with the least amount of power compression that you can afford. I generally suggest a vented 12 or sealed 15 as a minimum. I really like the power sound audio suggestion. Don't bother with brick and mortar brands... they're designed to be small first and foremost, at the expense of extension or output.

Don't be afraid of internet direct. Results might be a bit different from your expectations but you'll slowly be blown away.

Also sell the paradigms. ;P

 

[hjustin]

You can't demo a sub because its sound will be created by the room you put it in. All you will hear at a demo is the room room room ROOM!

Just get two of the sub with the least amount of power compression that you can afford. I generally suggest a vented 12 or sealed 15 as a minimum. I really like the power sound audio suggestion. Don't bother with brick and mortar brands... they're designed to be small first and foremost, at the expense of extension or output.

Don't be afraid of internet direct. Results might be a bit different from your expectations but you'll slowly be blown away.

Also sell the paradigms. ;P

Good point on regarding the room. My wife is extremely forgiving with the home theater stuff because she loves it, too, but I don't think I can get away with two subs.

I'm tempted to sell the Paradigms and my receiver and start over. Not happy with any of it right now but to be fair, I have not completed an Audyssey calibration since we moved in the spring. The settings I'm using now are for our old apartment. Probably not very smart.

 

[Steve81]

to be fair, I have not completed an Audyssey calibration since we moved in the spring. The settings I'm using now are for our old apartment. Probably not very smart.

Not at all. I'm not sure how you could expect anything approaching good sound if speaker distances, trim levels, and EQ are set for a totally different room...

 

[Jeff R.]

Did I miss the targeted budget for this? You have unlimited options until you pin down your budget.

 

[templemaners]

Did I miss the targeted budget for this? You have unlimited options until you pin down your budget.

Yes, you did.

From the bottom of the first post:

Is there anything in the $500 range that will work for my room? If I'm increase my budget to $750, what doors does that open?

 

[hjustin]

Did I miss the targeted budget for this? You have unlimited options until you pin down your budget.

$750 for just the subwoofer.

 

[slipperybidness]

IMO, you would be better off running in direct or pure direct and not running with Audysee settings from a completely different room. At least try it, I think it should sound better in direct mode.

My advice would be try direct mode. If no dice, then re-calibrate to the new room.

Go ahead and buy the best subwoofer you can afford. Whether or not you keep the Paradigms....the advice is still buy the best subwoofer that you can afford. If you do that first, then you may find that the Paradigms + Subwoofer get you to where you want to be. If not, then you could consider selling the Paradigms. Heck, you might even decide to use the money on cheaper speakers + a 2nd sub

I think if it were my $ and I was in your situation, that would be my first choice.

 

[hjustin]

IMO, you would be better off running in direct or pure direct and not running with Audysee settings from a completely different room. At least try it, I think it should sound better in direct mode.

My advice would be try direct mode. If no dice, then re-calibrate to the new room.

Go ahead and buy the best subwoofer you can afford. Whether or not you keep the Paradigms....the advice is still buy the best subwoofer that you can afford. If you do that first, then you may find that the Paradigms + Subwoofer get you to where you want to be. If not, then you could consider selling the Paradigms. Heck, you might even decide to use the money on cheaper speakers + a 2nd sub

I think if it were my $ and I was in your situation, that would be my first choice.

I'm going to re-calibrate tonight with just my L/C/R. I had deliberately opted not to do so because I still don't have my rear speakers setup yet. I'm not sure if I should use a pair of my Micros or Atoms or if I should buy a pair of Paradigm's ADP dipoles. My seating area (couch) is against the back wall of the room. I should probably put together a drawing of my living room and create a separate thread in the Loudspeakers forum.

One thing of which I'm certain: the quality of the feedback I have received on this site up to this point is far better than I've received in other online communities and even face-to-face with my local dealers. The two guys I dealt with locally were nice enough, but didn't really listen to me or make an effort to understand my situation. Or maybe I'm so ignorant about this stuff that I'm asking for something crazy. If that's the case, they could have kindly nudged me in the right direction...I have no ego in this. I just want good sound and if I can learn something along the way, that's a great bonus.

Thanks again!

 

[Steve81]

I'm not sure if I should use a pair of my Micros or Atoms or if I should buy a pair of Paradigm's ADP dipoles. My seating area (couch) is again the back wall of the room.

I'd expect the speakers you have now would serve as reasonably good surrounds. Placement of the seating area is a little problematic though. If you can move the couch off the wall a ways, I'd expect sound quality to improve. Treating the back wall probably wouldn't be a bad idea either if it's just bare drywall now.

 

[hjustin]

I'd expect the speakers you have now would serve as reasonably good surrounds. Placement of the seating area is a little problematic though. If you can move the couch off the wall a ways, I'd expect sound quality to improve. Treating the back wall probably wouldn't be a bad idea either if it's just bare drywall now.

I think I will definitely put up a floorplan (and some photos) this evening and maybe some photos. I can move my TV, stand, and front speakers to another part of the room if need be.

Need to look at the forum guidelines and see if I can post that sort of stuff since I'm new here. Steve, I read through your sub-upgrade thread and wasn't able to see your photos. Perhaps newbies can't view photos either.

 

[Steve81]

Need to look at the forum guidelines and see if I can post that sort of stuff since I'm new here. Steve, I read through your sub-upgrade thread and wasn't able to see your photos. Perhaps newbies can't view photos either.

Nah, I took em down to put up other stuff since the forum only gives a 1 meg limit on attachments, and I don't have a photobucket account or anything

Edit: I'll see if I can remedy that tonight.

 

[anamorphic96]

Wow. A former theater veteran. I myself am still in the trenches. On top of that you have a system very close to my own.

Paradigm Mini Monitor V.1 and LCR-350 up front with Energy C1 surrounds. I also use the Denon 1911 in a 2700cubic foot room.

I get great sound from this system. It may not have the mid range dynamics and scale of a great cinema. But it's damn good.

Looking over your current system I would not sell anything. I would just focus on system configuration and speaker placement.

You do need a sub however and the SVS and HSU are fine choices. I use the HSU STF-2 with good results but wouldn't mind the VTF-2 or 3. The variable tuning options are quite nice as well.

I agree with your crossover choices. 60-80hz is fine for the Monitor 7's. I also found my lcr-350 which is the same as the cc-350 responds well to a 100hz crossover point. Seems high but opens the sound up a good bit. Probably since they they roll off around 70hz.

You could also hook up surrounds to your sides or up near ceiling along back wall or corners. For the Atoms I would use a 100hz crossover point.

Hope this helps.

 

[slipperybidness]

I'm going to re-calibrate tonight with just my L/C/R. I had deliberately opted not to do so because I still don't have my rear speakers setup yet. I'm not sure if I should use a pair of my Micros or Atoms or if I should buy a pair of Paradigm's ADP dipoles. My seating area (couch) is against the back wall of the room. I should probably put together a drawing of my living room and create a separate thread in the Loudspeakers forum.

One thing of which I'm certain: the quality of the feedback I have received on this site up to this point is far better than I've received in other online communities and even face-to-face with my local dealers. The two guys I dealt with locally were nice enough, but didn't really listen to me or make an effort to understand my situation. Or maybe I'm so ignorant about this stuff that I'm asking for something crazy. If that's the case, they could have kindly nudged me in the right direction...I have no ego in this. I just want good sound and if I can learn something along the way, that's a great bonus.

Thanks again!

Yeah, couch against the back wall is far from ideal, but if that's where it has to be then that's where it has to be. As far as the surrounds, you already have 2 different pairs that might work out fine, so it is certainly worth trying them out before you spend more money.

If you do the L/C/R calibration and add the surrounds later, then be sure to recal after surrounds are installed.

Yeah, not surprising that you get better advice here than just about anywhere else. This site is dedicated to measurements and objective observations, not opinions and subjective observations.

And, this is a hobby that many of us take very seriously, already reading up on HT an hour or more per day, so you've come to the right place. Even on here, you will get 10 different answers from 10 different people, but most everyone will give you something to point you in the right direction.

 

[hjustin]

Wow. A former theater veteran. I myself am still in the trenches. On top of that you have a system very close to my own.

Paradigm Mini Monitor V.1 and LCR-350 up front with Energy C1 surrounds. I also use the Denon 1911 in a 2700cubic foot room.

I get great sound from this system. It may not have the mid range dynamics and scale of a great cinema. But it's damn good.

Looking over your current system I would not sell anything. I would just focus on system configuration and speaker placement.

You do need a sub however and the SVS and HSU are fine choices. I use the HSU STF-2 with good results but wouldn't mind the VTF-2 or 3. The variable tuning options are quite nice as well.

I agree with your crossover choices. 60-80hz is fine for the Monitor 7's. I also found my lcr-350 which is the same as the cc-350 responds well to a 100hz crossover point. Seems high but opens the sound up a good bit. Probably since they they roll off around 70hz.

You could also hook up surrounds to your sides or up near ceiling along back wall or corners. For the Atoms I would use a 100hz crossover point.

Hope this helps.

I still have a close friend that is the managing director for 16 house building close to our house. I haven't paid to see a movie in years. I can't say that I miss counting concession stock every night. But I do miss being able to thread something up after the door close and jacking up the volume. Most of our auditoriums were outfitted with JBL speakers, powered by Crown amps. The night we screened the last Terminator movie, it was so loud I thought my head was going to explode.

I appreciate the crossover suggestions. I will certainly try them when the time comes and I think I will try the Atoms for my surrounds.