Help with subwoofer connection

[lovinthehd]

No harm in turning the gain higher than 12 o'clock either. Some subs need to be run nearly at full gain, others maybe at 15%.....it varies along with pre-out levels (which is way the audyssey instructions guess at the halfway point for gain on the sub simply as a good starting setting). If after Audyssey your sub trim is well into the positive dBs, I'd increase the gain on the sub until it drops to 0 or less.....

ps another difference is the smaller driver in your old sub probably doesn't dig very low, and where it does have output is easier to seem "louder"....if not being boosted in a narrow band which will also have an effect on how loud it appears to be. We call them one note wonders for a reason....

 

[blk00ss]

You have to understand that there is no standardization in the systems you are using. It could be one has a higher input sensitivity than the other. (Remember how I described that HTIB systems can have some surprises in how they operate? )
Likewise, a properly designed powered subwoofer will balance the Driver Sensitivity and the Amp in a way that ensures that the system as a whole works. If one component is different, people immediately notice and say things like "I have to turn the gain up more."
whether you use o'clock or percentages, gain levels are specific to the Subwoofer and how you have it connected, to what, and so many other variables. (Like perhaps your iPad at full volume is delivering a higher voltage signal than the AVR.)
Comparing such things is very difficult without much more specific information.

That's a good point with the Ipad level. There is really no way for me to know or understand the Ipad's headphone output level compared to the the Denon receiver output. Its not apples to apples. As mentioned, I can definitely tell a difference with the splitter going into both left and right. Maybe I'm on the right path. I hope at least. I was really looking forward to my latest upgrade.

 

[ryanosaur]

In newer AVRs with Audyssey XT32, it wants your Sub gain set so the output through the Sub is hitting ~73dB. The Room Correction takes over from there.
When setting up your system, you never want your Sub to be the quietest Speaker. Negative trim betwwen -7 and -10 is often recognized as ideal.

 

[lovinthehd]

Well, if you had the actual specs of each the avr and iPad, you could compare the voltage levels of each. Most Denons will do 2V easily enough....have no idea what an iPad puts out, tho.

 

[lovinthehd]

In newer AVRs with Audyssey XT32, it wants your Sub gain set so the output through the Sub is hitting ~73dB. The Room Correction takes over from there.
When setting up your system, you never want your Sub to be the quietest Speaker. Negative trim betwwen -7 and -10 is often recognized as ideal.

They're no longer using 75dB for subs?

 

[ryanosaur]

They're no longer using 75dB for subs?

Last time I did it, it was fitting into a "Window." I say "~73dB" because you have to try to get it to accept it while the SPL is bouncing around as it does.

 

[lovinthehd]

Last time I did it, it was fitting into a "Window." I say "~73dB" because you have to try to get it to accept it while the SPL is bouncing around as it does.

Yeah it aims at 75 but has some leeway....at least on mine. I aim at 78 usually.

 

[TLS Guy]

Update...so I went and bought an RCA y splitter. It seemed to help a little. I also went back through the settings and changed some things as well as did Audyssey setup again. Its better. But here is what I don't get. The sub pretty much has to be at the 12 o'clock position to hear any low end. If I put the little 6.5 ported sub at 12 o'clock and listen to the same stuff, the 6.5 has way more grunt and is just much louder. And based on size and specs, it shouldn't be in my opinion.

Just for curiosity I tried again to run the same song straight from my ipad directly to both subs. The new 10 inch hits hard. But the 2nd I plug it into the Denon via the subwoofer out, I lose the grunt. I can crank it up and it'll be loud and hit hard, but it does not like the Denon receiver. But I have to set the level DB way up and the knob on back has to be at 12 o'clock position or even higher. Why? A subwoofer out is a subwoofer out pretty much on any and all AV receivers. How can Denon's be such a weak signal. It makes no sense. Let me rephrase that...why does the signal seem weak on this Dayton sub. Its not that way with the Denon 6.5. They're supposed to send me a replacement. I guess we'll see.

You will need to turn the gain higher on the new sub. After a lot of digging around I find you original HTIB was not standard. The sensitivity of your 6.5" sub is 200mv, which is well below the standard line voltage of 1.2 volts. I can not find the spec of your current receiver, but I suspect it is between 1 and 1.2 volts. Your new Dayton will be specked for an input of 1.2 volts. So you new sub will require six times the input voltage to get to the same output as your new sub. So your new sub will play 16 db. quieter than your old one with the same input voltage. That explains what you have noted.

Your receiver does have two sub outs. According to your sub instructions, you will get maximum output connecting both sub outputs to the sub. This may not be true in your case, as I suspect on your receiver those outputs are no different to your Y, as they are not labelled sub 1 and sub 2.

 

[blk00ss]

You will need to turn the gain higher on the new sub. After a lot of digging around I find you original HTIB was not standard. The sensitivity of your 6.5" sub is 200mv, which is well below the standard line voltage of 1.2 volts. I can not find the spec of your current receiver, but I suspect it is between 1 and 1.2 volts. Your new Dayton will be specked for an input of 1.2 volts. So you new sub will require six times the input voltage to get to the same output as your new sub. So your new sub will play 16 db. quieter than your old one with the same input voltage. That explains what you have noted.

Your receiver does have two sub outs. According to your sub instructions, you will get maximum output connecting both sub outputs to the sub. This may not be true in your case, as I suspect on your receiver those outputs are no different to your Y, as they are not labelled sub 1 and sub 2.

This is good info. I didn't even consider line output voltage and I can't find any specs for my newer receiver. But I actually thought this would allow me to place the subwoofer gain lower. Or, maybe my line out voltage on this new receiver is low, but it was still high enough to signal a very sensitive 6.5 sub?

So basically, and so I understand better...my original 6.5 subwoofer was super sensitive, right? Which would explain why I'm having to place the new subwoofer at the 1:00 or even 2:00 o'clock position for it to sound healthy, correct?

 

[Pogre]

Just a thought... going from a HTIB sub that has a lot of distortion and boom... in comparison a legit clean sub can seem quieter. It's a different kind of bass. Smoother, more subtle and not as noisy.

I don't know if this is the case with you, but it's a possible consideration. Placement is important too, and so is having a large enough sub for your room. Did anyone ask how big your room is?

 

[Pogre]

So basically, and so I understand better...my original 6.5 subwoofer was super sensitive, right? Which would explain why I'm having to place the new subwoofer at the 1:00 or even 2:00 o'clock position for it to sound healthy, correct?

Basically in a nutshell that's how I'm interpreting what he's saying.

 

[lovinthehd]

At least your sub didn't come from a typical htib set, as those mostly are passive subs needing the receiver to provide sub power and modern avrs can't be used with.....but does seem your old sub amp has a sensitivity advantage over your newer one.

 

[blk00ss]

At least your sub didn't come from a typical htib set, as those mostly are passive subs needing the receiver to provide sub power and modern avrs can't be used with.....but does seem your old sub amp has a sensitivity advantage over your newer one.

That's true. I remember when I bought this system many years ago (2002 I believe). I had looked at other home theater in a box options (I was young and poor) and I went with this one because it did not include a DVD player and it came with a powered subwoofer. The ones that came with DVD players always struck me as cheap and cheesy. This one felt more like a entry level system that you could tailor to your liking. I actually have the old receiver it came with. Still works great. IN fact, I like it better than this newer Denon receiver

 

[blk00ss]

Just a thought... going from a HTIB sub that has a lot of distortion and boom... in comparison a legit clean sub can seem quieter. It's a different kind of bass. Smoother, more subtle and not as noisy.

I don't know if this is the case with you, but it's a possible consideration. Placement is important too, and so is having a large enough sub for your room. Did anyone ask how big your room is?

Its funny you say that. As I was swapping the cable back and forth during a song between the two subs I thought to myself...that little one sounds so much louder and more boomy. Its ported so that makes sense, of course this new one is ported on the bottom as well. The old little sub doesn't break up too bad, but if I were to place the gain knob on the old one at half (12 o'clock) position, it would sound awful. I guess loud isn't always better. This new one I've been messing with most of the day and to be honest, it seems to handle whatever you throw at it without getting nasty sounding. It hits pretty clean. So maybe I'm just not used to it?

 

[ryanosaur]

At least your sub didn't come from a typical htib set, as those mostly are passive subs needing the receiver to provide sub power and modern avrs can't be used with.....but does seem your old sub amp has a sensitivity advantage over your newer one.

My old HTIB had a passive sub and spring clips for Speaker connections on the AVR. Subs was Rca only. The interesting thing with that old Onkyo setup was that the Sub actually performed better when I connected it to my Marantz prior to my other gear coming in. Less distortion and noise from the Sub was very noticeable.

To that point, what many people hear as Bass is usually distortion. Many of the rattles and irritation people express is caused by that.

 

[lovinthehd]

Its funny you say that. As I was swapping the cable back and forth during a song between the two subs I thought to myself...that little one sounds so much louder and more boomy. Its ported so that makes sense, of course this new one is ported on the bottom as well. The old little sub doesn't break up too bad, but if I were to place the gain knob on the old one at half (12 o'clock) position, it would sound awful. I guess loud isn't always better. This new one I've been messing with most of the day and to be honest, it seems to handle whatever you throw at it without getting nasty sounding. It hits pretty clean. So maybe I'm just not used to it?

Old cheap small ported subs may deserve that reputation (mostly what caused the reputation), but a well designed ported sub wouldn't be boomy. I think you're just getting a better sub now and you'll appreciate it more as you become accustomed to it....

That's true. I remember when I bought this system many years ago (2002 I believe). I had looked at other home theater in a box options (I was young and poor) and I went with this one because it did not include a DVD player and it came with a powered subwoofer. The ones that came with DVD players always struck me as cheap and cheesy. This one felt more like a entry level system that you could tailor to your liking. I actually have the old receiver it came with. Still works great. IN fact, I like it better than this newer Denon receiver

What don't you like about the X1200? The avr that came with your set was a Denon AVR 683, a decent one, but somewhat similar in lineup position I'd think.

 

[Pogre]

Its funny you say that. As I was swapping the cable back and forth during a song between the two subs I thought to myself...that little one sounds so much louder and more boomy. Its ported so that makes sense, of course this new one is ported on the bottom as well. The old little sub doesn't break up too bad, but if I were to place the gain knob on the old one at half (12 o'clock) position, it would sound awful. I guess loud isn't always better. This new one I've been messing with most of the day and to be honest, it seems to handle whatever you throw at it without getting nasty sounding. It hits pretty clean. So maybe I'm just not used to it?

That really could be part of it. A little 6.5" is pretty... well, little for a sub. It would have to move a whole lot more than a larger sub for the same volumes. We don't hear distortion in bass the same way we can at higher frequencies. It's not immediately apparent, but it's there and it's adding noise to the clean signal and can make it seem louder.

I experienced it when I upgraded my subs too. I went from cheap 10s to nice 15s (huge room) and at first it did seem like the new subs weren't as loud. I think what it was is the distortion and boominess I had gotten used to was gone. If you'd asked me if my subs sounded distorted before I upgraded I would have said "no", but I think that's really what it was. My new subs can rattle every wall and window in my house when I want them to so I know there's nothing wrong with them, lol.

Like I said, I can't know if that's what's happening for you, but it did for me so thought I'd toss it out there.

 

[TLS Guy]

This is good info. I didn't even consider line output voltage and I can't find any specs for my newer receiver. But I actually thought this would allow me to place the subwoofer gain lower. Or, maybe my line out voltage on this new receiver is low, but it was still high enough to signal a very sensitive 6.5 sub?

So basically, and so I understand better...my original 6.5 subwoofer was super sensitive, right? Which would explain why I'm having to place the new subwoofer at the 1:00 or even 2:00 o'clock position for it to sound healthy, correct?

Yes, your new sub is 16 db less sensitive then your old sub, so it needs 16 db. more input voltage, which in your case is 1 volt. That is a lot.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes, your new sub is 16 db less sensitive then your old sub, so it needs 16 db. more input voltage, which in your case is 1 volt. That is a lot.

I tried to find spec on the old Denon sub, where did you get it?

 

[TLS Guy]

I tried to find spec on the old Denon sub, where did you get it?

Unfortunately I have recurrent hyperparathyroidism, and I'm hypercalcemic again. I have to really concentrate to remember what happens recently at the moment. But I think I found it in the user manual. Anyhow the information fits with what the OP is experiencing. Old age brings it problems, and its benefits over the alternative becomes increasingly marginal.