Help with first time external amp config

AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
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8,160 23 6
#21
Yet another reason to build my own house next time!
Building a custom house is a lot of work since you have to select everything about the house, but it's also a lot of fun. :D

If you do build a custom house one day, let me know and I can tell you a few things. :D
 
sven1olaf

sven1olaf

Audioholic
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97
#22
We plan on it. Probably about 5 years.

I look forward to talking with you about what you've learned during yours.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

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8,160 23 6
#23
We plan on it. Probably about 5 years.

I look forward to talking with you about what you've learned during yours.
Probably the salient thing is to find out from people what they would do DIFFERENTLY (regrets) if they could do it again. :D

Nobody wants to talk about their regrets because it hurts them, but they would be doing you a huge favor.

I could tell you a few things I would do differently, but that's another time and place. :D
 
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A

Andrein

Full Audioholic
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#24
How does UK 240v/10-13a compare to US 110v/15-20a in terms of effect on sq, dynamic range, etc. I guess tge wattage is what matters. I guess UK is ahead?)))
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
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#25
How does UK 240v/10-13a compare to US 110v/15-20a in terms of effect on sq, dynamic range, etc. I guess tge wattage is what matters. I guess UK is ahead?)))
Ahead or not depends what you are referring to. In terms of maximum power delivery, the applicable formula is Power = Voltage X Current, so yes you can say that if your house cirucit spec is 240 V, 10 A then you are "ahead" of ours in NA.

240 V, 10 A = 240 X 10 = 2.4 kVA
120 V, 15 A = 120 X 15 = 1.8 kVA

US and Canada has 120 V, 15 A or 120 V, 20 A for the common loads (lights, wall outlets)
Our 120 V, 15 A circuits can deliver 120 X 15 = 1.8 kVA, or 1.8 kW for 100% resistive load such as electrical heaters. Our 120 V, 20 A circuits can deliver 120 X 20 = 2.4 kVA, same as your 240 V, 10 A circuits but not less much as your 240 V, 13 A circuits can deliver.

Note that UK's nominal voltage is 230 V, but if you measure it you will likely find that they are closer to 240 V.

The main advantage of the higher voltage is that for the same power (kVA/kW) and wire size, the higher the voltage, the lower the voltage drop due to the decrease in current. However, the allowable wire size will obvious be smaller for higher voltage system, that will result in higher resistance/km. So in the end the voltage drop may not be all that different.
 
KEW

KEW

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#26
How does UK 240v/10-13a compare to US 110v/15-20a in terms of effect on sq, dynamic range, etc. I guess tge wattage is what matters. I guess UK is ahead?)))
Yeah, when it comes to high draw power tools like a table saw, the UK definitely delivers (unless we match it with a 240V circuit here)!
The only real advantage to our 120V system I can think of is we usually can walk away from getting shocked at 120V whereas I suspect that is not so common there.
Things have changed over the last 40 years, but when I was in HS, a friend of mine's dad has an electric drill that would shock us when we pulled the trigger. It definitely wasn't the full 120V, but we did not enjoy using it. His dad didn't seem to mind enough to replace it (and he could afford to if he wanted, I just think he thought it was fun and his dry calloused hands did not conduct as much current as our hands did, and at the time he really impressed us as being tough)! I think in the UK you would treat a "leaky" drill as a bit more of a safety hazard knowing the potential for 240V was there.
But I'd rather be on the 240 standard and have to make sure everything was in proper condition!
However, I think your question of SQ and dynamics, etc is best answered with "not until you exceed the ability of the 120V system". It would increase potential dynamic range which would be an SQ improvement!
 
A

Andrein

Full Audioholic
Ratings
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#27
Yeah, when it comes to high draw power tools like a table saw, the UK definitely delivers (unless we match it with a 240V circuit here)!
The only real advantage to our 120V system I can think of is we usually can walk away from getting shocked at 120V whereas I suspect that is not so common there.
Things have changed over the last 40 years, but when I was in HS, a friend of mine's dad has an electric drill that would shock us when we pulled the trigger. It definitely wasn't the full 120V, but we did not enjoy using it. His dad didn't seem to mind enough to replace it (and he could afford to if he wanted, I just think he thought it was fun and his dry calloused hands did not conduct as much current as our hands did, and at the time he really impressed us as being tough)! I think in the UK you would treat a "leaky" drill as a bit more of a safety hazard knowing the potential for 240V was there.
But I'd rather be on the 240 standard and have to make sure everything was in proper condition!
However, I think your question of SQ and dynamics, etc is best answered with "not until you exceed the ability of the 120V system". It would increase potential dynamic range which would be an SQ improvement!
My brother electrician. From Belarus where i am from originally. He showed me many times how he touches mains wires for a couple of seconds. It was 220v. He was saying that humans body resistence varies significantly from person to person. And his probably was high enough to withstand 220v))) Regarding SQ i saw somewhere in one of power amp specs manufacture was saying that provided specs are for 240v conditions and for 120v they will be 'slightly worse'. Not sure what amp it was. Can be Emotiva xpa5 or Anthem mca 525.
 
sven1olaf

sven1olaf

Audioholic
Ratings
97
#28
Yeah, when it comes to high draw power tools like a table saw, the UK definitely delivers (unless we match it with a 240V circuit here)!
The only real advantage to our 120V system I can think of is we usually can walk away from getting shocked at 120V whereas I suspect that is not so common there.
Things have changed over the last 40 years, but when I was in HS, a friend of mine's dad has an electric drill that would shock us when we pulled the trigger. It definitely wasn't the full 120V, but we did not enjoy using it. His dad didn't seem to mind enough to replace it (and he could afford to if he wanted, I just think he thought it was fun and his dry calloused hands did not conduct as much current as our hands did, and at the time he really impressed us as being tough)! I think in the UK you would treat a "leaky" drill as a bit more of a safety hazard knowing the potential for 240V was there.
But I'd rather be on the 240 standard and have to make sure everything was in proper condition!
However, I think your question of SQ and dynamics, etc is best answered with "not until you exceed the ability of the 120V system". It would increase potential dynamic range which would be an SQ improvement!
Quick sidenote on EU vs. US power.

The US standard is 120V @ 60Hz. The EU uses 240V @ 50Hz. This difference in frequency is more of an issue than the Voltage, given that we can use 240V here if needee.

The difference outside of the current potential from the larger V is that the 50Hz signal is almost exactly that of the QRS Complex from you heart...well the R-Wave portion specifically. This has implications for electrocution causing cardiac events.
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Senior Audioholic
Ratings
148 13 7
#29
I bet 99.9% of the time, guys who own AVRs (especially higher-end models) don't even need external amps.

But it's a hobby and it's not always about need, is it? :D

I don't need ten subwoofers in my room, but it sure feels good. Haha. :D

What's powering my 10 subwoofers? A single ATI AT2005 amp. These amps can power just about anything, can't they? :D
What is considered a higher end model?
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

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Ratings
148 13 7
#30
Not sure what you mean by rack vs console?
Your avr has only rca pre-outs so rca cables from those to the inputs on the power amp.
Amp needs a certain level of voltage to perform to rated output, spec is called sensitivity, often in range of 1V-2V. Your Marantz pre-out voltage will likely be fine with all of them.
Never used a power conditioner in 45 years, amps do fine with wall outlets, they can handle swings in voltage just fine usually.
12V triggers are fairly common and believe your avr is already equipped with such; an alternative is a smart power strip (what I use for some amps without a trigger)
Same way you calibrated using the avr's amps alone (re-run Audyssey or whatever you did before)

All those amps are fine, they differ somewhat in power and price so choose a combo you like. Personally I'd also look at Crown XLS amps (I have several). You can always use an spl calculator to get an idea of what your power will translate to at your seat...http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html
Smart power strips actually work, I read some mixed reviews about them. Don't you still have to turn the power switch on and to power up your avr to make the external amp power and is there a delay?
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

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#32
For Yamaha, it would be the $1600 RX-A2080 and $2,000 A3080.

For Denon it’s the $1600 X4500 and up.
OK, so you don't think there's much benefit to external amplification when you have the one of the above mentioned A/V receivers, even though AVR manufacturers tend to exaggerate their power ratings?
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

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#33
It's not that, per se, but an effect of what you really need to listen at the levels you want to listen at.
My AVR would have no problem driving my rig at the levels I normally listen... usually say -10dB in most situations. Sometimes I turn it up to -5dB (still requiring less than 1W per channel). Due to the lower sensitivity (85dB) of my speakers, however, I wouldn't necessarily be able to clear reference level dynamic peaks just using the Amp stage of the Marantz SR6012. Though I might only lose out on a few dBs of SPL, it is important to me to have the headroom available to dish out the dynamics I would come across in Symphonic music for example, or for when the Death Star blows up. :)
On the other hand, someone with higher sensitivity speakers would likely not need any additional help from external amps.
This is why we often refer people to this SPL calculator to get a better understanding of their needs against their desires. :D
 
KEW

KEW

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#34
For Yamaha, it would be the $1600 RX-A2080 and $2,000 A3080.

For Denon it’s the $1600 X4500 and up.
In my world, that translates to:
For Yamaha, it would be the refurbished $800 RX-A2070 and $980 A3070.

For Denon it’s the refurbished $750 X4400 and up.
Given the savings on buying last year's refurbished model , I'll probably never buy a current model AVR again!
Better yet, if the timing is right, you can get last years model new in box for not much more than refurb (but refurb are always available)!
https://www.accessories4less.com/ma...[]=YAMAHA&brand_f[]=DENON&number_channels[]=9
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Slumlord
Ratings
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#35
Smart power strips actually work, I read some mixed reviews about them. Don't you still have to turn the power switch on and to power up your avr to make the external amp power and is there a delay?
Been using smart strips this way in two setups for 5 plus years, I use the avr as the "master" device and when it powers up my several amps/subs (might initially need to adjust the sensitivity of the power strip to react properly to your avr going on/off),some delay I suppose but nothing that delays whatever I'm putting on/tuning into.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

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8,160 23 6
#36
1.so you don't think there's much benefit to external amplification when you have the one of the above mentioned A/V receivers,

2. even though AVR manufacturers tend to exaggerate their power ratings?
1. Usually not.

2. There is no exaggeration when you have the actual power measurement.

The Yamaha A3000s series can Output about 300 watts x 2Ch into 4 ohms. It’s been measured on S&V Magazine. There’s no exaggeration.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-aventage-rx-a3060-av-receiver-review-test-bench

3. And we don’t care about the All Channels Driven (ACD) test because that doesn’t happen in the real world. The ACD test only shows you how STRINGENT the PROTECTION circuits are. If you want to see how truly powerful an amp or AVR is, look at the 2Ch 8 ohms, 4 ohms, and 2 ohms if they have it.

@PENG and others can elaborate about the Denon AVR’s true power handling.

Bottom line- the amps inside these mentioned AVRs are for real, not exaggerated.
 
Y

yodog

Audiophyte
#37
My brother electrician. From Belarus where i am from originally. He showed me many times how he touches mains wires for a couple of seconds. It was 220v. He was saying that humans body resistence varies significantly from person to person. And his probably was high enough to withstand 220v))) Regarding SQ i saw somewhere in one of power amp specs manufacture was saying that provided specs are for 240v conditions and for 120v they will be 'slightly worse'. Not sure what amp it was. Can be Emotiva xpa5 or Anthem mca 525.
That’s the Emotiva XPA-5
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Senior Audioholic
Ratings
148 13 7
#38
1. Usually not.

2. There is no exaggeration when you have the actual power measurement.

The Yamaha A3000s series can Output about 300 watts x 2Ch into 4 ohms. It’s been measured on S&V Magazine. There’s no exaggeration.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-aventage-rx-a3060-av-receiver-review-test-bench

3. And we don’t care about the All Channels Driven (ACD) test because that doesn’t happen in the real world. The ACD test only shows you how STRINGENT the PROTECTION circuits are. If you want to see how truly powerful an amp or AVR is, look at the 2Ch 8 ohms, 4 ohms, and 2 ohms if they have it.

@PENG and others can elaborate about the Denon AVR’s true power handling.

Bottom line- the amps inside these mentioned AVRs are for real, not exaggerated.
Then why do people like Gene De Salla constantly recommend adding external amplification to AVR's, at least to the LCR?

 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Ratings
8,160 23 6
#40
Then why do people like Gene De Salla constantly recommend adding external amplification to AVR's, at least to the LCR?

It depends on your speakers, how loud you listen, and how far you listen.

I think most people don’t listen to “Reference THX Level” and most systems don’t need an external amp.

I'll repeat what PENG has repeatedly said: any amp can power even a 1-ohm speaker if the volume is low enough.

My first subwoofer was a 10" NHT subwoofer with an 80 Watt amp! Can you even find a subwoofer these days with 80 Watt? :D

And I was using this single 10" 80W subwoofer in an 18'x20'x10' open living room and shook all the walls like an earthquake. :D

I've used a 60WPC amp to power my RBH SX-1010N subwoofers (each sub has dual 10" Woofer) to as loud a volume as I am comfortable with, which means shaking all the walls and my bones like an earthquake. Yes, I absolutely love larger-than-life-bass. If "Reference THX level" is louder than this, then I don't want THX level because I will go deaf. :D

Like HD says, it depends on your use/goal/need/desire, etc.

So I am sticking to my belief - most AVRs in most systems don't need external amps. External amps are meant for separates (pre-pro and preamps).

But if you want to add a great amp to your AVR, that's cool too (even if I don't believe in it). :D
 
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