Help with building Atmos system in small Japanese apartment spare room.

[TheLegendOfRaia]

Hello, I’ve been facing a bit of indecision regarding setting up a home theatre room. I live in a pretty typical Japanese apartment, and the spare room I’m dealing with is a small, square room, about 260cm or 8.5ft. Currently, I have a a pair of Genelec G3s, and a Chord HugoTT 2 that I use for Gaming, Music and Movies/TV etc.. I’ve decided that it’s time to stop missing out on Multichannel technoligies, especially for gaming, and stop worrying about how sub-optimal my room is and just start putting something together. Some more details about the room - I have built a bit of sound absorption, and will probably add some decent bass traps, and am thinking that I will further mitigate some of the acoustical problems with good room correction, thus I’ll likely focus on an AV receiver that supports Dirac Live, as opposed to getting something from the new Sony ES series that I was previoudly leaning towards. There is also a closet in the room that I suppose I can empty out and take the doors off of to get a bit more space across one wall, but I suspect that’s over complicating things for now.

With all that out of the way, here are the main two questions. I really want some sort of surround sound in there. Is it absolutely ridiclous to try to put a 5.0.2 Atmos system in that room? I can fit the rears and center no problem, and up-firing Atmos speakers are easy enough to add with minimal hassle, but are the dimensions just too small to really have any surround effects sound decent?

My other main question here regards my choice of speakers for the room size. I’m open to direction here, and being told that my logic is way off track. Currently, for fronts, I’m considering either the Monitor Audio Silver series 50 or 100 7G (if the 50 is more appropriate for my room size, I’ll go with that, otherwise would go for the 100s) or the Kef R3 Meta as sort of an ‘upgrade option’, if that proves to be a better match. Whichever brand I go with, I’ll will get matching up-firing Atmos speakers, Center and the smallest standmounts I can get from each line for the surrounds. I suppose I can add another two Atmos channels to the surround speakers pretty easily, but am unsure of the bang for buck on that move. Both product lines can be found easily out here, but given the small room dimensions, am I crazy with those speakers choices? Am I way better off going with some sort of satalite speaker size? Is it possible, for example that the Monitor Audio Silver 50’s will perform well in that room, where the 100s would just be boomy overkill (like, does it even work like that? I’m not afraid to spend a little cash, if I have to, to get something really nice or appropriate for the situation. Any advice or direction would be appreciated, and thank you very much in advance!

-Jared

TLDR; is a 260cm (8.5ft) square room alltogether too small for 5.0.2? In that size room, would Monitor Audio Silver 50/100’s or Kef R3 Metas be way too incompatible with the room size?

 

[nicoleise]

Hello Jared,

Can you describe your seating also? I assume you'll use a wall hung TV, so that doesn't take up much space, but in such a small room your seating will decide what room is left for speakers.

I also think it'd be nice to know the type (reflective-ness) of the walls, ceiling and floor, and whether this is designed for one or more people to listen?

I don't think you can/should use upfiring/"reflecting" height speakers. I assume the ceiling height is somewhat normal (?) and so if we assume the speaker to emit sound some 30 cm from the front walls, even if assuming a rather drastic 45° angle, the reflected sound from the ceiling will still "land" quite a ways behind your listening position (or rather, be reflected back by the rear wall). I think ceiling mounted speakers are much better, and if not, you'll either have to work with the angles of the speakers or simply omit height speakers.

BR
Nicolai

 

[Wardog555]

5.25 inch speaker drivers minimum.
This is to ensure decent quality of the sound.

Some people might think smaller speakers are what they want but that only results in consequences of the sound quality.
People seem to value how a speaker looks rather than the sound quality which is what you need to piriotze over every thing else.
Speaker placement and tv layout is equally important.

I would offer arendal 1961 series as a compact speaker with high quality audio. They've been discontinued sadly.

 

[TheLegendOfRaia]

Nicolai, Thank you for your generous and very informative info! I'll answer your questions below. I have included a couple pictures of the room so far to give you a better idea of what's going on. I'm in the middle of putting everything back together after putting the new flooring down and putting the makeshift absorption panel up, so the place is kind of a mess. Also the permanent seating isn't in yet, so have just been using a portable Zero Gravity lounge. It's a bit of an embarrassing setup, yes, but I'm not sure how long I'll be in this place so haven't went all-out on my theatre just yet.

Correct, the TV is hung, and will be remounted when I get the required hardware to build a suspension mount myself. I'm just renting this place at the moment, so I shouldn't really put bolts in the walls.

This is designed for just me, so no need to worry about large listening angles. It's my theatre/cigar lounge hahah. I put a carpet down across the whole floor, just to make sure there were no unnecessary reflections from the wood/fake wood/plastic/whatever is down there, and put tatami panels for further absorption over that wherever I could fit it without the entrance door hitting it. I think the walls are typical, cheap and very thin drywall, with wooden studs behind it, but am not too familiar with what they use out here for interior construction so am not positive.

I have always been very doubtful of up-firing speakers, and it seems you likely agree with my suspicions. I told myself that perfect is the enemy of good here, and said that I'd have to make some sacrifices, but if you think that I'd be better off without height speakers altogether, I certainly wouldn't argue with that. As I mentioned, it's a rental so I'm going to try to avoid mounting speakers to the ceiling (but honestly, if I find something small and light, I might just do it anyway.) The ceilings are fairly reflective, given the thin drywall, I think, and are about 240cm high (a bit shy of 8'.) I'm not sure if the height speakers that sit on top of the fronts can be angle adjusted, but I will check on that. Pics below, and thank you very much! I'll expand a little on more speaker into in my next post, which will be a reply to the gentleman that responded after you did.

 

[TheLegendOfRaia]

Wardog, Thanks very much for your help! That is very good to know about the minimum driver size. My current Genelec G3's are only 5 ⅛, while the Monitor Audio Silver 50/100/200/300 as well as the KEF R3/R5 Metas are all 5 ¼ or above, so I'm covered there. I'll look forward to those benefits. I made a trip to my local dealer today, and noticed that even the Monitor 200/300s floor standers are a good amount more slender than the 100 bookshelves, and might be the better option for that room. Same for the KEF R5 Metas (floor standers) vs the R3s (which to my uneducated eye just looked way too big for a small 262x266cm room. They didn't have the Monitor 50s on display, but those may be the best option given the size of the 100s. A note - when I refer to 'too big;, I don't mean aesthetically and they'll look silly or not get wife acceptance factor or anything, I'm just wondering if they will be too 'boomy', or 'overpower the room', or whatever other kind of sonic detriments will come with being 'too big' for the room. Thanks very much!

 

[PENG]

Wardog, Thanks very much for your help! That is very good to know about the minimum driver size. My current Genelec G3's are only 5 ⅛, while the Monitor Audio Silver 50/100/200/300 as well as the KEF R3/R5 Metas are all 5 ¼ or above, so I'm covered there. I'll look forward to those benefits. I made a trip to my local dealer today, and noticed that even the Monitor 200/300s floor standers are a good amount more slender than the 100 bookshelves, and might be the better option for that room. Same for the KEF R5 Metas (floor standers) vs the R3s (which to my uneducated eye just looked way too big for a small 262x266cm room. They didn't have the Monitor 50s on display, but those may be the best option given the size of the 100s. A note - when I refer to 'too big;, I don't mean aesthetically and they'll look silly or not get wife acceptance factor or anything, I'm just wondering if they will be too 'boomy', or 'overpower the room', or whatever other kind of sonic detriments will come with being 'too big' for the room. Thanks very much!

For 8 ft ceiling, I think the up-firing speakers for Atmos is not going to be much less effective then ceiling mounted types. The Genelec G3 seems to have good reviews and great measurements, are you sure you are going to like the R3, or Monitor Audio 200 that much more? The R3/R5, and Monitor Audio Silver speakers tend to be more like 4 ohm nominal speakers but in your small room they should be fine.

With a square room, sitting near field, I would recommend using Dirac Live, so the Denon AVR-X3800H, or Marantz Cinema 50 may be your best bet, so that you have the option to upgrade to Dirac Live. (Paid option). Even in that small room, you can still benefit a lot by having a subwoofer (for movies anyway), so you may want to look into that as well.

 

[nicoleise]

Nicolai, Thank you for your generous and very informative info! I'll answer your questions below. I have included a couple pictures of the room so far to give you a better idea of what's going on. I'm in the middle of putting everything back together after putting the new flooring down and putting the makeshift absorption panel up, so the place is kind of a mess. Also the permanent seating isn't in yet, so have just been using a portable Zero Gravity lounge. It's a bit of an embarrassing setup, yes, but I'm not sure how long I'll be in this place so haven't went all-out on my theatre just yet.

Doesn't matter at all, all I was wondering is the size of the seating arrangement. If you were doing a sofa against the back wall and needed room for 2-3 people, it would be a different story.

The layout you have should actually work quite well, with your main limitation being volume. Sitting so close to the speakers means you can't turn the volume up very far (and thus might not get the sensations of for example speakers vibrating your body), but likely considerations of neighbours prevents this anyways. I'm also assuming this is the reasoning behind the absence of subwoofers?

I have always been very doubtful of up-firing speakers, and it seems you likely agree with my suspicions. I told myself that perfect is the enemy of good here, and said that I'd have to make some sacrifices, but if you think that I'd be better off without height speakers altogether, I certainly wouldn't argue with that. As I mentioned, it's a rental so I'm going to try to avoid mounting speakers to the ceiling (but honestly, if I find something small and light, I might just do it anyway.) The ceilings are fairly reflective, given the thin drywall, I think, and are about 240cm high (a bit shy of 8'.) I'm not sure if the height speakers that sit on top of the fronts can be angle adjusted, but I will check on that. Pics below, and thank you very much! I'll expand a little on more speaker into in my next post, which will be a reply to the gentleman that responded after you did.

Upfiring speakers are (in my opinion) less than ideal and mainly offered to make the step up to spacial audio with height channels more manageable in existing rooms and systems. Since they work by reflection, there are limitations to what they can do (and where) but if the room works for it, it can definitely be better than nothing. My ceiling looks like this: /\ with a 46° rise on either side (left/right) so as you can imagine, I'd probably get very interesting results from upfiring height speakers.

Thank you for the pictures. From those, I am guesstimating your listening position to be around 160 cm into the room and 100 cm from the back wall.

If I assume that your speakers are roughly at ear level, that means your front upfiring speakers would be something like 150 cm under the ceiling and needing to reach slightly less than 150 cm horizontally yo reach you (assuming there's a bit of distance between the wall and the speaker driver). That's obviously 45°, and I think these upfiring speakers are often at angles different than that. So as mentioned, if you go that way you'll likely have to come up with some contraption to wedge the speaker to aim it.

Honestly, I'm unsure how an upfiring height speaker will work in the room. It's a very small room, so it somewhat depends on the dispersion of the upfiring speakers whether you get (only) sound that hit you from the ceiling or if you get reflected sounds from all over the back walls. Your absorption panel will likely help though. If you're not overly concerned with money, I'd say try it, and if the result is unappealing, see if it's fixable. If not, sell the upfiring speakers. Otherwise, if less curious and more financially concerned, just forego the upfiring speakers.


As for the rest of the setup, I actually think you can have a pretty nice 5.0 experience in that room.