Help to change the path I took...

[herbu]

I'm not interested in Theater surround sound so Just a pair of good fronts and a center speaker is perfect.

I'm still curious why you include a "center". Music is in stereo, left & right. You use your TV speakers for TV. How would you use a center?

 

[NoobieHolic]

I'm still curious why you include a "center". Music is in stereo, left & right. You use your TV speakers for TV. How would you use a center?

I guess I was under the impression that if I added a great center speaker that I could get more sound. My worry is that if I went with just a front left and right, even though those Focal speakers would no doubt sound 10 times better for Music than the 5.1 set up I now have, problem would be that I do like my music louder than what many people enjoy.
I know far better sound quality would be there, but with just 2 fronts I worry that they just would not be loud enough for me.

So your saying that by adding a great center speaker to those 2 Focal bookshelf speakers that I would harm the clean 2 channel speration most desirable for strictly Music?
My reason for not going with floor standing speakers is strictly a matter of space. My living room is fairly small, but I still like my music very loud regardless of the space I have.

My Receiver is a 7.2 Yamaha and even though it's total output is 735W, That is separated by 7 channels. In the manual it states only 110W per channel. I guess I could go the next step up, as Focal does offer a step up from the $599 pair I was looking at for only $150 more. I wish my Receiver had a way to switch all that Amp power to just 2 channels.

 

[fuzz092888]

I'm still curious why you include a "center". Music is in stereo, left & right. You use your TV speakers for TV. How would you use a center?

Not all music is stereo. However, if you're listening to multi-channel music it is most likely 5.1.

 

[NoobieHolic]

Take a look at the Focal 806V
FOCAL CHORUS 806V BOOKSHELF SPEAKERS (PR) at Music Direct

Compared to Bose - Definitive SM450 is a strong option
Definitive Technology StudioMonitor 450 Pair Home Audio Speaker - Newegg.com

Also look at PSB
PSB Image B6 (Black Ash) Bookshelf speakers at Crutchfield.com

Can you take a look at the link I sent? These are also Definitive Bookshelf speakers, but unlike the ones you linked for me, these speakers have Bi-Amp connection. Given that my Yamaha Receiver can only do 110W per-channel and these speakers have Bi-amp connection and can handle 225W each, could I run my Front L & R Receiver outs with another separate L & R out from my Receiver to each of these speakers? I'm thinking that would allow my Receiver to deliver 220w to each of these speakers using these speakers Bi-Amp connections. Or am I wrong about that idea?

Newegg.com - Definitive Technology StudioMonitor SM55 Home Audio Speaker

 

[markw]

Not all music is stereo. However, if you're listening to multi-channel music it is most likely 5.1.

If one listens to music on DVDs or blu-rays this would be true. Otherwise this would require either SACD or, if you can find any, DVD-audio recordings. I've got some RCA Living Stereo SACDs that have front three channels, the way it was recorded (on tape, narutally) in the mid fifties.

Maybe downloaded music is different, dunno.

 

[fuzz092888]

If one listens to music on DVDs or blu-rays this would be true. Otherwise this would require either SACD or, if you can find any, DVD-audio recordings. I've got some RCA Living Stereo SACDs that have front three channels, the way it was recorded (on tape, narutally) in the mid fifties.

Maybe downloaded music is different, dunno.

DVD-A, BD, and SACD were what I had in mind when talking about multi-channel. C'mon man, mid fifties is a little before my time

Any downloaded music I've come into contact with has been strictly two channel. I'm guessing that has to do with file size.

 

[markw]

DVD-A, BD, and SACD were what I had in mind when talking about multi-channel. C'mon man, mid fifties is a little before my time

Why, you little whippersnapper. Didn't yo momma larn you to mind yer elders?

Seriously, not everyone realizes this. A lot of unsophisticated people actually think when they hit that "all channel stereo" or DPL/Neo button it magicaly creates real live channels where there weren't any to begin with.

Any downloaded music I've come into contact with has been strictly two channel. I'm guessing that has to do with file size.

That's what I thought, but some of us old dogs can still learn new tricks.

 

[fuzz092888]

Why, you little whippersnapper. Didn't yo momma larn you to mind yer elders?

She did, but I heard the word "impertinent" a lot as a child

Seriously, not everyone realizes this. A lot of unsophisticated people actually think when they hit that "all channel stereo" or DPL/Neo button it magicaly creates real live channels where there weren't any to begin with.

I think upmixing has some value in certain situations and has come a long way, but none of those situations involve music playback.

That's what I thought, but some of us old dogs can still learn new tricks.

I'm definitely enjoying the rise of high quality downloading and streaming. Now the industry just needs to take a step back and do a better job mixing or at least stop mixing for cars, cell phones, and crappy headphones so we can enjoy the high quality streaming/downloading.

 

[zieglj01]

Can you take a look at the link I sent? These are also Definitive Bookshelf speakers, but unlike the ones you linked for me, these speakers have Bi-Amp connection. Given that my Yamaha Receiver can only do 110W per-channel and these speakers have Bi-amp connection and can handle 225W each, could I run my Front L & R Receiver outs with another separate L & R out from my Receiver to each of these speakers? I'm thinking that would allow my Receiver to deliver 220w to each of these speakers using these speakers Bi-Amp connections. Or am I wrong about that idea?

Newegg.com - Definitive Technology StudioMonitor SM55 Home Audio Speaker

The biggest thing you will gain is more speaker wire, and be able to adjust the tweeter volume level
and maybe gain a little more headroom. You will not really double the power - you will split the signal
between the woofer and tweeter > when you remove the jumpers from the terminal plate (important to
remove them). One channel will be sending 110 watts to the woofer, and the other 110 watts to the
tweeter, this will not double the power as a whole.

Also, the 225 watts that Definitive says they can handle, may mean short term peaks.

A lot of times based on program material, your receiver is not putting out close to 110 watts at once.
The Bose speakers can only handle so much power at once - their woofers like to burp and they have
a protective circuit in the crossover - I think the 201 is only able to handle around 75 watts long term.

What is the model number of your Yamaha receiver?

 

[markw]

I think upmixing has some value in certain situations and has come a long way, but none of those situations involve music playback.

Definitely. I'm ofthe firm opinion the source should be played back in it's native format but I'll make exeptions for movies and use Neo or DPL when they stream 'em in 2 channel.

I'm definitely enjoying the rise of high quality downloading and streaming. Now the industry just needs to take a step back and do a better job mixing or at least stop mixing for cars, cell phones, and crappy headphones so we can enjoy the high quality streaming/downloading.

C'mon Fuzzy. That's where the money is. It's certainly not in catering to those pitiful few of us who actually care about good sound.

 

[fuzz092888]

Definitely. I'm ofthe firm opinion the source should be played back in it's native format but I'll make exeptions for movies and use Neo or DPL when they stream 'em in 2 channel.

I've been pretty surprised at how much I like up mixing and how well the receiver works. It's not for everyone, but I usually leave it on all the time (in the HT/TV setup). There isn't a lot coming from the surround and rear surround speakers during TV shows, but every once in awhile you get crowd noises, rain, something flying around or overhead and I figure I should get some use out of the things since they're already setup

C'mon Fuzzy. That's where the money is. It's certainly not in catering to those pitiful few of us who actually care about good sound.

What can I say, I'm a dreamer

 

[NoobieHolic]

The biggest thing you will gain is more speaker wire, and be able to adjust the tweeter volume level
and maybe gain a little more headroom. You will not really double the power - you will split the signal
between the woofer and tweeter > when you remove the jumpers from the terminal plate (important to
remove them). One channel will be sending 110 watts to the woofer, and the other 110 watts to the
tweeter, this will not double the power as a whole.

Also, the 225 watts that Definitive says they can handle, may mean short term peaks.

A lot of times based on program material, your receiver is not putting out close to 110 watts at once.
The Bose speakers can only handle so much power at once - their woofers like to burp and they have
a protective circuit in the crossover - I think the 201 is only able to handle around 75 watts long term.

What is the model number of your Yamaha receiver?

It is the Yamaha RX-V863 7.2 Channel AV Receiver. One correction: This Receivers amp is split at 105w Per channel. According to the Manual in the Bi-Amp section it's pretty easy to set this Receiver to a "Bi-Amp configuration." Then it gives a diagram of how to wire up just 2 front Bi-Amp speakers. (Of course first by removing the speakers terminal plate.) It then says to use the 4 post Front L & R Receiver speaker connections in conjunction with the Receivers 4 L & R Bi-Amp speaker connections. (There was a note to ensure that all 8 speaker wires are the same Gauge and also the same length.

The diagram indicates using a Pos & Neg, 2 from the Front L & R and 2 From The Bi-Amp L & R to each Bi-Amp speaker. The diagram is pretty easy to follow. The one thing the Manual does not indicate is if by switching the Receiver to this Bi-Amp mode, is the Receiver then just sharing the Front Left 105w and right 105w channel with the Receivers Bi-Amp L & R. (Sort of like splitting the amp output) Or is this allowing The Bi-Amp outs their own 105 watts Left & 105w watt Right.

I don't think it shares output in this mode. I'm pretty sure that means (in effect) That by doing such a thing I would have 210w total going to The left Front Bi-amp speaker & 210w total going to The Right Bi-Amp speaker. I agree that even though those speakers list a total handling of 225w each speaker that this is probably "peak" and not RMS. I'm going to guess it's perhaps 120w RMS each speaker. Although, In comparison to my Bose 201V speakers which are rated at only 10W RMS and about 70w Peak, Then having these Definitive speakers that could handle 120w RMS each would be a huge leap. In fact, given that the Definitive speakers I linked to you are supposed to put out Great bass and mid-range, I may not even need my 150w down firing subwoofer. I like good bass tone, but I listen to Hard Rock music and I'm not looking for fat vibrating bass such as a person that listens to Hip Hop. (I have no license plate on my from door that I want to hear rattle.) Ha! That was a joke if you have ever been driving and seen the plate on a car bumper rattle from bass over kill. Balanced sound is my goal.

I understand what you mean by how, "The program material effects wattage output to each speaker." Even with my current speaker system I notice a big difference in actual Volume level depending on if I am playing a music CD, listening to Pandora, or playing MP3 music saved on my smart phone. MP3 from my Phone or an MP3 player is not near as loud. Pandora direct from my BluRay player puts out more sound, and a Music CD seems to be even better and allows for what seems like much more power to my speakers.

I actually wouldn't mind being able to independently adjust Volume wattage to the tweeter separate from the Bass-Mid of each speaker. If by doing this and adjusting properly I could get even 25% more actual clean volume by selecting those Definitive Bi-Amp speakers then that would be well worth the extra money for those speakers.

This also allows me to get rid of 5 speakers and a Sub-woofer, which would save a little space in my living room. I think I might jump on those Bi-Amp Definitive Speakers at the $299 each speaker. Pretty sure I can get $500 for all 5 of my surround speakers plus the Sub-woofer. The Yamaha Sub-woofer is the latest model and alone sells for $179 online and $225 at Best Buy. They are all pretty new and if all were purchased new online a person would pay 25% more for this set I have even if they found a great online deal. That means only $100 out of my pocket for the Definitive Bi-Amp front pair I like.

My Living room is only 30 foot by 30 Foot wide. I see no reason that those 2 good Bi-Amp Definitive speakers (hooked up and adjusted properly) should fail to be plenty of room filling sound. At the worst I'm very sure they will sound 100% better than my Bose 201V speakers. I may take some photos and post all of them on Craigslist this week. Make it a firm price and see if I get any calls on them. I may even post $600 firm for the whole 5.1 set.

 

[zieglj01]

The diagram indicates using a Pos & Neg, 2 from the Front L & R and 2 From The Bi-Amp L & R to each Bi-Amp speaker. The diagram is pretty easy to follow. The one thing the Manual does not indicate is if by switching the Receiver to this Bi-Amp mode, is the Receiver then just sharing the Front Left 105w and right 105w channel with the Receivers Bi-Amp L & R. (Sort of like splitting the amp output) Or is this allowing The Bi-Amp outs their own 105 watts Left & 105w watt Right.

I don't think it shares output in this mode. I'm pretty sure that means (in effect) That by doing such a thing I would have 210w total going to The left Front Bi-amp speaker & 210w total going to The Right Bi-Amp speaker. week.

What you are mainly doing is doubling the speaker wire and not the power. Also regardless, your tweeter can not take 210 watts,
the speakers have passive crossover networks inside and the signal goes to them.
What you are doing is passive bi-amping and not active bi-amping >> The receiver has one main power supply for the channels to
draw power from. The more channels you use, the receiver become less efficient with the one power supply.

By some small miracle, you may or may not get 10 to 20% more power - however, no real increase in volume. Also, when one can
really double the power - the average gain will be 3db more volume.

The Definitive Tech and Focal, will play louder than Bose in a normal set up/hook up.

 

[NoobieHolic]

What you are mainly doing is doubling the speaker wire and not the power. Also regardless, your tweeter can not take 210 watts,
the speakers have passive crossover networks inside and the signal goes to them.
What you are doing is passive bi-amping and not active bi-amping >> The receiver has one main power supply for the channels to
draw power from. The more channels you use, the receiver become less efficient with the one power supply.

By some small miracle, you may or may not get 10 to 20% more power - however, no real increase in volume. Also, when one can
really double the power - the average gain will be 3db more volume.

The Definitive Tech and Focal, will play louder than Bose in a normal set up/hook up.

It was not long after that last post that I did a few hours of research regarding the tech aspects of passive Bi-amping. Just about everything I found mirrored what your saying. with what your saying and from all I have read, it looks like using the Bi-amp capability of my receiver with the new definitive speakers that any gain would be negligible or non-existent.

I understand what you mean about my receivers amp being less efficient as it is dependent on a single power supply.
Of course that does have me scratching my head as to why many AV receivers such as mine would have this "bi-Amp" switching capability given that utilizing it offers no real benefit.

I'm also at a loss to understand why any speaker manufacturer would bother to incorporate bi-amp connections as even with a separate high end Amp there doesn't seem to be much benefit to Bi-amping speakers.

Either way, I like this model Definitive Bookshelf speaker rather than the lower end model for half the cost. It offers more bass so I can eliminate my Sub-woofer.

One question... Upon reading the specs of the Definitive bookshelf speakers I have selected, It states they are 8 Ohm speakers. Can they be run at 6 Ohms? My receiver has a 6 Ohm setting and even the Bose 201V Speakers I have show in the manual that they can be run at 6 Ohms or 8 Ohms. I did notice fair improvement after I switched my receiver to 6 Ohms to run my Bose speakers.

It seems to me that at 6 Ohms there would be less resistance, which in turn would mean better efficiency. Then again I'm probably wrong about how that works also.

 

[tmurnin]

One suggestion given where you're coming from. There is a ton of information out there - some of it is great, much of it is myth and snake oil. For now, I would avoid esoteric or "advanced" concepts like bi-amping, bi-wiring, etc,". Just focus on getting the best set of speakers you can afford, wire them as simply as you can, and just listen to them for a month or so before you do anything else. It's easy to get on these forums and think that you immediately need to upgrade your electronics, replace all your recordings with SACDs, buy a killer DAC, and renovate your space with acoustical wall treatments before you could possibly have anything worth listening to, but in doing that, you lose the pleasure you were seeking in the first place. Grab your speakers, put on something you love, fix a drink, and listen.

 

[zieglj01]

I'm also at a loss to understand why any speaker manufacturer would bother to incorporate bi-amp connections as even with a separate high end Amp there doesn't seem to be much benefit to Bi-amping speakers.

Either way, I like this model Definitive Bookshelf speaker rather than the lower end model for half the cost. It offers more bass so I can eliminate my Sub-woofer.

One question... Upon reading the specs of the Definitive bookshelf speakers I have selected, It states they are 8 Ohm speakers. Can they be run at 6 Ohms? My receiver has a 6 Ohm setting and even the Bose 201V Speakers I have show in the manual that they can be run at 6 Ohms or 8 Ohms. I did notice fair improvement after I switched my receiver to 6 Ohms to run my Bose speakers.

It seems to me that at 6 Ohms there would be less resistance, which in turn would mean better efficiency. Then again I'm probably wrong about how that works also.

The name of the game is marketing - to try and increase sales.

The Definitive has strong bass output - they do have a bass bump around 130 hz, and will level down after that,
and are -3 db around 44 hz.

I would not use the Yamaha sub with the Definitive - since you live in a condo, start again with good bookshelf
speakers, and then see what the future holds.

I would leave the receiver at 8 ohms - the Definitive plays above 6 ohms for most of the frequency band.

 

[NoobieHolic]

The name of the game is marketing - to try and increase sales.

The Definitive has strong bass output - they do have a bass bump around 130 hz, and will level down after that,
and are -3 db around 44 hz.

I would not use the Yamaha sub with the Definitive - since you live in a condo, start again with good bookshelf
speakers, and then see what the future holds.

I would leave the receiver at 8 ohms - the Definitive plays above 6 ohms for most of the frequency band.

8 Ohms it is then... I just added this Yamaha Sub because my Bose 201's are so void of any clear solid bass and even mid-range thump. I'm actually shocked that the Bose I once knew would even put their name on these Speakers. Even this cheap Yamaha Sub-woofer is marginal at best. It tends to deliver more of a vibrating type of bass tone rather than a clean solid thump or punch.

Somewhere along the mass market mess that got really bad 10 years ago, Bose has just lost all pride in their product. My PolkAudio CS10 Center speaker has also been a big disappointment. I remember the day when if you had an old school PolkAudio speaker set that you really had something special. $110 for this PolkAudio center speaker... At that low price I should have been suspicious. All thin cheap fiber board press wood housing and for the size it feels way too light. It has dual 5 inch cones, but all you get is an ear splitting sound that is far from clean and solid regardless of what format your playing.

Reminds me of RCA. Way back 30 plus years ago if you bought an RCA TV then it was built like a Tank and would last forever. God have mercy on the fool that buys an RCA TV these days. Pure cheap Walmart junk not fit for an animal to view. Funny thing is people love that low price and they buy them and don't even realize they own junk. Sort of like me with my Bose speakers

 

[NoobieHolic]

Good advice... I don't want to get ahead of myself. I have plastered the internet for hours and even picky Audiophile lovers had not a bad word to say about the Definitive StudioMonitor 55 Bookshelf speakers. Said to be "for the cost of $599 a pair" to be just about the best you can do. I also read not to fully judge them for a few weeks because they will sound better after a break in period.

Unfortunatly I can not head out and blow 6 Grand all at once on all that I would like, but perhaps that is better and just starting with something high quality and taking time to learn and bump things up as time passes is much more wise to do. Rome wasn't built in a week

 

[Ponzio]

Music Direct now has the Epos Epic 1's on sale for $300 (normally $600). Great speaker and when you have more funds you can always use them as surrounds.