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cgarlock

Audioholic Intern
$5K or $6K for an AVR is an oxymoron. :D

The main purpose of the AVR is to save money, not spend more money. :D

But it depends on what kind of price you can actually get for separates vs AVR.

A big theme around here is buying previous year models. If you can get separates (like CX-A5100 + MX-A5000) for cheaper than an AVR, that’s another thing to think about.

But $5K and $6K AVR should be removed from your thoughts. :D

I guess the main struggle now is will I notice a profound difference between the separates you listed above versus a quality AVR? I still have time to read and understand more but I don't have anyone local to me that has any equipment like this to listen.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I guess the main struggle now is will I notice a profound difference between the separates you listed above versus a quality AVR? I still have time to read and understand more but I don't have anyone local to me that has any equipment like this to listen.
Many of us (myself, PENG, others) who have owned separates for a long time don’t think the sound is different unless you set them up different.

But there’s no way we would buy any AVR if they cost the same or more than separates. :D

AVR should cost lot less than high quality separates. Otherwise get high quality separates.
 
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cgarlock

Audioholic Intern
Many of us (myself, PENG, others) who have owned separates for a long time don’t think the sound is different unless you set them up different.

But there’s no way we would buy any AVR if they cost the same or more than separates. :D

AVR should cost lot less than high quality separates. Otherwise get high quality separates.
Well that was where my thoughts were headed. The newer AVR's are very impressive but if all things considered are equal then I think separates are the way to go. I never had any issues with the former set up until mother nature intervened. I'm keeping an eye on the Yamaha, just scanning yesterday and saw them for $1999.00(Had to edit my post because I wasn't sure about the forum rules for linking websites).. The reviews there match what you and others have said here.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Well that was where my thoughts were headed. The newer AVR's are very impressive but if all things considered are equal then I think separates are the way to go. I never had any issues with the former set up until mother nature intervened. I'm keeping an eye on the Yamaha, just scanning yesterday and saw them for $1999.00(Had to edit my post because I wasn't sure about the forum rules for linking websites).. The reviews there match what you and others have said here.
Oh yeah. You can get a MX-A5000 11Ch amp for $1699 brand new on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-MX-A5000BL-AVENTAGE-11-Channel-Amplifier/dp/B00DJ4BMIS/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=Yamaha+MX-A5000&qid=1561996034&s=electronics&sr=1-2

And get the CX-A5100 "Like New" condition with full 3YR warranty for $1500. New condition would cost a little more if you check around.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B012UJZWF6

So why pay $3,000 or especially $6,000 for an AVR when you can get the high-quality CX-A5100 + MX-A5000 11CH separates (Atmos 7.2.4) for $3,200?

Now some people feel that Dirac and other room correction is a "must". I don't like any room EQ.

One great feature with the Yamaha is the 7-Band Parametric EQ (PEQ). What Gene does is he uses YPAO first. Then copy the "Natural" YPAO auto EQ setting to the Manual PEQ. Then he tweaks the PEQ to get the desired EQ.

As for me, I don't mess with any EQ above 100Hz. So I just leave all the speakers PEQ alone (bypass them) and just use the Subwoofer PEQ on the Yamaha to get what I want for the bass EQ.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Yes I have to agree that once that price is reached, might as well go back to separates. The Denon and Marantz have stellar reviews on this site and I'd lean to the Marantz if I go the AVR route. I loved my separates but the added simplicity of the AVR is really becoming appealing.
I assume you bought separates (1 pre-pro + 3 amps) because you thought separates sound better than AVR.

The truth is :) although they don't really sound better than AVR, the engineering philosophy/rationale/theory behind most separates is better than AVR.

I say "most separates" because I've personally seen the insides of at least one separates (AVP-A1HDCI) and it's a total JUNGLE MESS inside. We're talking about all-over-creation mess horseshoed inside a chassis - like ten layers of circuit boards atop one another. :eek:

But the interior of the Yamaha CX-A5100/5200 seems to be quite well-engineered to my eyes. :D

The operating temperature of the CX-A5100 is also like 100% lower than the temp of the AVP-A1HDCI.
 
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cgarlock

Audioholic Intern
I assume you bought separates (1 pre-pro + 3 amps) because you thought separates sound better than AVR.

The truth is :) although they don't really sound better than AVR, the engineering philosophy/rationale/theory behind most separates is better than AVR.

I say "most separates" because I've personally seen the insides of at least one separates (AVP-A1HDCI) and it's a total JUNGLE MESS inside. We're talking about all-over-creation mess horseshoed inside a chassis - like ten layers of circuit boards atop one another. :eek:

But the interior of the Yamaha CX-A5100/5200 seems to be quite well-engineered to my eyes. :D

The operating temperature of the CX-A5100 is also like 100% lower than the temp of the AVP-A1HDCI.

I bought separates because I didn't like the idea of having all that equipment packed in to one box. :)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I didn't like the idea of having all that equipment packed into one box. :)
Are you okay with the idea of having all that equipment (11-13Ch processing + 11-13Ch amps and more) packed into one box now? :D
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Ninja
I bought separates because I didn't like the idea of having all that equipment packed in to one box. :)
I share this sentiment. My AVR experience has been pretty good so far though!

When I start really digging into the next upgrade there, my biggest requirements are as I indicated previously: better bass management control (Dirac, maybe) and better amp assignability (regarding channel options and ability to turn off unused amps).
I'd like to see Anthem drop an upgrade to their current line up before I start this process... ;) we'll see how that plays out. :p
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
The operating temperature of the CX-A5100 is also like 100% lower than the temp of the AVP-A1HDCI.
You heard it here first folks!!!
Using his CX-A5100, ADTG is the first person to have ever achieved Absolute Zero and he did it in his home theater!!!:D

(Commonly used temperature scales do not assign 0 to a point of "no heat remaining". So if you decrease the temperature from 60 degrees to 0 degrees F, that is not a 100% decrease! Absolute Zero is the temperature at which there is no energy remaining (at the molecular level) so there is no way for it to get colder. Both the Rankine and the Kelvin scales set 0 at absolute zero)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
You heard it here first folks!!!
Using his CX-A5100, ADTG is the first person to have ever achieved Absolute Zero and he did it in his home theater!!!:D

(Commonly used temperature scales do not assign 0 to a point of "no heat remaining". So if you decrease the temperature from 60 degrees to 0 degrees F, that is not a 100% decrease! Absolute Zero is the temperature at which there is no energy remaining (at the molecular level) so there is no way for it to get colder. Both the Rankine and the Kelvin scales set 0 at absolute zero)
Well, okay it’s more like 25% or so, but Absolute Zero does make a more interesting hyperbole. :D
 
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cgarlock

Audioholic Intern
This is going to get interesting now that the insurance company wants to try and shake me down. In a letter that I received today they claimed to have arrived at a cash value of $8k, which is less than half of the paperwork I turned in. They even stated that I can source and OSD Audio amplifier from Home Depot!

That's like saying you can get great sushi at a gas station.

This is going to be quite a process and maybe anyone who has read this will think about how to protect your investments from catastrophic events.
 
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Grandzoltar

Full Audioholic
Never take the first offer. Insurance companies low ball thinking you’ll just take it. Tell them to re run the numbers especially since you gave them receipts. Stand your ground
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
I'm working towards Atmos in my system. Hoping I can do 7.2.4, wish I could do 5.2.6... so that, as alluded to above, is a consideration. I I could choose an AVR that would allow me to set up 6 Atmos channels instead of just 4.
I like the 5.2.6 idea, but my crazy mind read that as 5.6.2. LOL. :)
 
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cgarlock

Audioholic Intern
Never take the first offer. Insurance companies low ball thinking you’ll just take it. Tell them to re run the numbers especially since you gave them receipts. Stand your ground

Oh yeah, it's party time!
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
1. Any suggestions for the Atmos speakers?

2. For the projector the JVC sounds like the new king
1. Pretty much any ceiling speakers will work. I like to use 8" ceiling speakers. There are many factors, but with all things being about equal, bigger drivers tend to give us more dynamics.

2. Before I got the JVC NX5, I never knew what people were talking about when they said "beautiful black levels". If you have never seen a high-end JVC PJ in action, get ready to be extremely impressed.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Those are the marketing specs that RBH provides, but Gene (who measured the speakers in the link below had this to say:

That seems a far cry from "50W is all you need".
Assuming the amp can handle 2.5 Ohms (Gene said it is a "Beast"), based on the SPL calculator, 50W will produce about 102dB from 12 FT away on a speaker with 93dB/w/min.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

However, if this amp is actually a "lightweight" and not really a total "Beast", then it might be different.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Assuming the amp can handle 2.5 Ohms (Gene said it is a "Beast"), based on the SPL calculator, 50W will produce about 102dB from 12 FT away on a speaker with 93dB/w/min.
Handling 2.5 Ohms is a huge assumption!

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

However, if this amp is actually a "lightweight" and not really a total "Beast", then it might be different.
I read through Gene's review and did not see anything to indicate the MX5000 was well suited to low impedance.
I'm betting he called it a beast primarily because it can power 11 channels!
It is not a bad amp, but not the kind of amp Gene would recommend for use with his 8T's.
If you compare it to the Outlaw 5000, you'll find that the $650 Outlaw 5000 and $3000 Yamaha MX5000 are very close in their power capabilities:
2Ch, CFP-BW, 8 Ohms, 0.1%THD, Y=177WPC, O=170WPC
2Ch, CFP-BW, 4 Ohms, 0.1%THD, Y=250WPC, O=230WPC
5Ch, 1kHz Psweep, 8 Ohms, 0.1%THD, Y=138WPC, O=139WPC
5Ch, 1kHz Psweep, 8 Ohms, 1.0%THD, Y=144WPC, O=148WPC
2Ch, Dynamic PWR, 8 Ohms, 1.0%THD, Y=225WPC, O=230WPC
2Ch, Dynamic PWR, 4 Ohms, 1.0%THD, Y=396WPC, O=390WPC
5Ch, Dynamic PWR, 8 Ohms, 1.0%THD, Y=205WPC, O=212WPC

https://www.audioholics.com/av-preamp-processor-reviews/yamaha-aventage-cx-a5000-mx/processor-and-amp-measurements
https://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/outlaw-5000/measurements

I made the better reading bold, but the amount one beats the other is small enough that we can pretty well say these are equivalent amps ... except the Yamaha is an 11 channel amp!
For $1700, we can get 2 Outlaw 5000's and an Outlaw 2200 monoblock for the center to give us our 11 channels. That would put more power on tap and still save $1300!

But my real point is that the Yamaha MX5000 is notable among amps in that it has 11 channels of amplification. That amplification is somewhat better than typical AVR amplification, but certainly not the kind of increase you would normally look for from a premier external amp.

Gene says of amplification for the 8T's:
In order to achieve the full potential this speaker system has to offer, it’s recommended that you select an amplifier that is as close to an ideal voltage source as possible, doubling down in power as impedance halves (ie. 300wpc at 8-ohms, 600wpc at 4ohms, 1200wpc at 2ohms). It’s a good idea to verify with the amplifier manufacturer of your choice if their product is truly stable down to 2-ohm loads. Using an amp not capable of sourcing lots of current into 4- and even 2-ohm loads will result in clearly audible inferior results especially at louder listening levels with bass intense program material. I had excellent results pairing these speakers with amplifiers from Classe and Pass Labs and I am confident you would too but also check out options from ATI, Anthem, Boulder, and Bryston to name a few.
So, you're a dealer, get Yamaha to tell you that the MX5000 is "truly stable down to 2-ohm loads" and I'll believe (good luck with that)!
The MX5000 is a good solid amplifier for routine duties (as is the Outlaw 5000),but it simply does not keep company with Classe, Pass Labs, ATI, Anthem, Boulder, and Bryston that Gene suggests for driving the 8T's!

If you want 11 channels in one box, this is your amp. If you want it to match your Yamaha Processor, this is the one to get!
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
1. I'm betting he called it (Yamaha MX-A5000/5200 amp) a beast primarily because it can power 11 channels!

2. it simply does not keep company with Classe, Pass Labs, ATI, Anthem, Boulder, and Bryston
1. @gene what did you mean when you said the MX-A5000 is a "beast"? :D

2. No, I would not say the MX-A5000 is in the same class as all those 200W+ amps it comes to power.

Most tests don't show any 1 or 2 ohm results for ANY amp. If you look at the websites of all those amp companies, you're probably not going to see them advertise 2 ohms either. They may advertise Dynamic Power into 2 or 1 ohm, like Yamaha, but not continuous power for 2 ohms.

But.....I'm still going with Ohm's Law and say that any amp can power 2.5 ohms as long as the volume is low enough.

Would I use the MX-A5200 if I owned five RBH 8T? Absolutely YES I would!

I would tell you why, but I wonder if you already know why. :D

Well, okay, that's b/c I prefer to use the modular towers as monitor-subwoofer configuration, not full-range. The MX-A5000 is powering my five SX-T1/R, but the ATI is powering the SX-1010 subs.
 

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