help on amp choice

[Hostility]

Well I'm finally some what looking into finally getting an amp. I've had the xpa-5 emotional amp in the past and liked it. Now I have a pair of focal 926 towers and looking to give them some good power. I feel like my anthem Mrx 300 runs out of steam at high levels during movies. I listen to music at low to moderate levels. Now I use my mac book air through an emo xda-2 into my anthem and out to my focals. I was looking at emos xpa-1l monoblocks as I can run them in class a for music and switch to a/b for movies. Or a used pair of emo up1s or even Bryston. But for price the Bryston is more money used then emo new or pretty close. The cheapest is the used upa1 if the guy ever emails me back. I've also looked at parasound but they are hard to find used in Canada. What do you guys suggest?

 

[PENG]

Well I'm finally some what looking into finally getting an amp. I've had the xpa-5 emotional amp in the past and liked it. Now I have a pair of focal 926 towers and looking to give them some good power. I feel like my anthem Mrx 300 runs out of steam at high levels during movies. I listen to music at low to moderate levels. Now I use my mac book air through an emo xda-2 into my anthem and out to my focals. I was looking at emos xpa-1l monoblocks as I can run them in class a for music and switch to a/b for movies. Or a used pair of emo up1s or even Bryston. But for price the Bryston is more money used then emo new or pretty close. The cheapest is the used upa1 if the guy ever emails me back. I've also looked at parasound but they are hard to find used in Canada. What do you guys suggest?

For 2 channel Focal Aria 926 I would get an Oppo HA-1 and a Bryston 4B SST2 or a Halo A21. I am not familiar with the XPA-2 or XPR-2 but base on specs they should be fine.

 

[Hostility]

Trying to keep cost under 2k

 

[PENG]

Trying to keep cost under 2k

If your room is not too big the A23 can do the job for under 1K unless your ears are immune to noise induced losses. That takes care of a pair of 926. Add an Outlaw monoblock for the center and the MRX should not run out of steam driving only the surrounds. Every one says Halo amps sound great, you can't go wrong. I agree Bryston costs too much but I mentioned it because of the low C$ right now.

 

[herbu]

I've had the xpa-5 emotional amp in the past and liked it.

I like my xpa-5 emotional amp. It makes me happy.

 

[Hostility]

I've found a bryston 3bsst for about $1700 used obv. Or a set of emotiva xpa-1 monoblocks for $2000 used but could maybe talk him down. But would the xpa-1s be way overkill?

 

[Hostility]

I like my xpa-5 emotional amp. It makes me happy.

Haha damn auto correct on androids

 

[PENG]

I've found a bryston 3bsst for about $1700 used obv. Or a set of emotiva xpa-1 monoblocks for $2000 used but could maybe talk him down. But would the xpa-1s be way overkill?

If the 3bsst is 10 years old, you will still have 10 years warranty but the A23 is a better deal for 995 brand new.

 

[RichB]

I am a huge Parasound fan, but source components have the largest impact on sound.
So, I agree with Peng, and HA-1 as a preamp and either a Parasound A23 or if you need a big amp the Emotiva XPA-2 has a good bang for the buck.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Those speakers have a sensitivity of 91.5dB/2.83v/m, nominal impedance of 8 ohms, and power recommendation of 40-250W.

So IMO, most people would need about 40-250WPC amps, not 600W.

 

[RichB]

Those speakers have a sensitivity of 91.5dB/2.83v/m, nominal impedance of 8 ohms, and power recommendation of 40-250W.

So IMO, most people would need about 40-250WPC amps, not 600W.

Here is a listing of the Focal 926 speakers:

http://www.audiot.co.uk/products/focal-aria-926-speakers-6648.aspx

Further information
Reviews (5)
Technical Specification:

Type Three-way bass-reflex floorstanding loudspeaker
Speaker drivers 2 x 61/2" (16.5cm) Flax bass
61/2" (16.5cm) Flax midrange
1" (25mm) Al/Mg TNF inverted dome tweeter
Frequency response (+/- 3dB) 45Hz - 28kHz
Low frequency point - 6 dB 37Hz
Sensitivity (2.83V / 1m) 91.5dB
Nominal impedance 8 Ohms
Minimum impedance 2.9 Ohms
Recommended amplifier power 40 - 250W
Crossover frequency 290Hz / 2400Hz
Dimensions (H x W x D) 403/4x119/16x145/8’’ (1035x294x371mm)
Weight 55lbs (25kg)

These speaker may not be that easy to drive at high volume.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

These speaker may not be that easy to drive at high volume.

- Rich

He shouldn't play those speakers at high volume > 95dB from 15FT away then.

Definitely don't want to crank up the volume and send 600W of power to drivers that are rated for max of 250W (woofer) and probably max of < 100W for the midrange and tweeter.

I used to own the Focal Chorus 826V and I only used a Denon 3312 AVR to power them in 2.0 mode to volume > 90dB from 15' away without any issues. Did the same with the Phil3 and Dynaudio X32 towers. Didn't even used any external amps.

And I never blew a driver in my life after owning many, many speakers.

 

[RichB]

I suggested the amplifier not for its maximum continuous power which is 4.5 DB of headroom over your typical AVR driving a restive load.
Speakers are not restive and we do not listen to tones.

Not all amps are linear into actual load and you can destroy speakers when an amp is clipping when there is power compression.

You would need to keep your speakers a bit longer and play them a bit louder to destroy a driver.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I suggested the amplifier not for its maximum continuous power which is 4.5 DB of headroom over your typical AVR driving a restive load.
Speakers are not restive and we do not listen to tones.

Not all amps are linear into actual load and you can destroy speakers when an amp is clipping when there is power compression.

You would need to keep your speakers a bit longer and play them a bit louder to destroy a driver.

- Rich

Continuous 20Hz-20kHz tones @ a CONSTANT 4 ohm load is much more difficult to drive than music with variable frequencies where most of the time it is from 200Hz-10kHz and most of the time it is 8 ohms (nominal).

Constant 4 ohms tones is like driving a car uphill @ 45 degrees angle continuously. Actual music is like driving a car up and down many hills where some hills are @ 45 degrees, but most of the hills are at 10 degrees angles.

I've heard of some people blowing their speakers. But almost all of the time, it is from guys using external amps. Most receivers have great speaker protection circuits that shut off the AVR if overdriven.

You crank up the volume to 120dB from 3m and put 250W of UNCLIPPED power through any tweeter and it is marshmallows.

 

[RichB]

Continuous 20Hz-20kHz tones @ a CONSTANT 4 ohm load is much more difficult to drive than music with variable frequencies where most of the time it is from 200Hz-10kHz and most of the time it is 8 ohms (nominal). .

Music is dynamic. The tests you refer to are not so you are stressing the accumulation of heat, so in that sense it is stressful.
Most of the time you don't clip. Clipping for short amounts of time will not trip thermally and sound that is not produced is not heard and therefore, not unpleasant.

Audioholics: 10 Things about Audio Amplifiers You've Always Wanted to Know

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/10-things-about-audio-amplifiers

10. How Do Small, Low-Powered Amplifiers Put Speakers at Risk?
Initially, it seems contradictory—how could a low-powered amplifier burn out speakers, when amplifiers of 200 or 400 watts per channel would seem to put speakers at much greater risk?[bold] The reason is that a small amplifier of 10 or 20 watts per channel can easily be driven into distortion and “clipping” with even moderately loud playback and dynamic peaks in loudness. The clipping cuts off the waveform and turns the output signal into an almost pure constant DC signal, which can quickly cause the fine wires in the speaker’s voice coils to overheat and melt. A large amplifier outputs clean power to the speakers –distortion-free AC audio signals—that the speaker voice coils will accept on a momentary basis without damage.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Music is dynamic. The tests you refer to are not so you are stressing the accumulation of heat, so in that sense it is stressful.
Most of the time you don't clip. Clipping for short amounts of time will not trip thermally and sound that is not produced is not heard and therefore, not unpleasant.

Audioholics: 10 Things about Audio Amplifiers You've Always Wanted to Know

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/10-things-about-audio-amplifiers
- Rich

Myths about clipping and DC:

http://billfitzmaurice.info/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1886

You can find any writings to support one POV over another.

Clipping can introduce higher than the rated unclipped power. A 50W amp that clips may introduce 100W of output, but will never output 600W of power into a speaker, while a 600W amp can output 600W into a speaker even if it is not clipped.

If the tweeter is rated for 150W, a 50W amp that clips will never blow the tweeter. But the 600W amp can blow the tweeter even if it is not clipped.

Bottom line is, if you use excessive volume, the speakers will blow whether the amp is over-powered or under-powered.

 

[RichB]

Myths about clipping and DC:

http://billfitzmaurice.info/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1886

You can find any writings to support one POV over another.

Clipping can introduce higher than the rated unclipped power. A 50W amp that clips may introduce 100W of output, but will never output 600W of power into a speaker, while a 600W amp can output 600W into a speaker even if it is not clipped.

If the tweeter is rated for 150W, a 50W amp that clips will never blow the tweeter. But the 600W amp can blow the tweeter even if it is not clipped.

Bottom line is, if you use excessive volume, the speakers will blow whether the amp is over-powered or under-powered.

These arguments are based on a power amplifier attached to a tweeter, which is not the case.
Amps can clip on musical peaks if they cannot supply the power.

Clipped peaks produce dynamic compression. Some will turn up the music because it is not loud enough until it sounds compressed.
It is non-trivial to determine if an amp has is clipping during peaks when listening "loud". 80 DB is too loud to some.

I cannot listen to distortion at 80 DB because it is too loud. By dynamic well recorded music is a different story.

Bottom line, an amp should be sized so that power compression does not alter the sound. It should not clip.

There are companies that provide tremendous power and reasonable prices so enthusiasts might oversize their amps
Amps that handle peaks and do not clip, don't get stressed or hot will last a good long time.
Now, where could I find an enthusiast who does that...

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

These arguments are based on a power amplifier attached to a tweeter, which is not the case.
Amps can clip on musical peaks if they cannot supply the power.

Clipped peaks produce dynamic compression. Some will turn up the music because it is not loud enough until it sounds compressed.
It is non-trivial to determine if an amp has is clipping during peaks when listening "loud". 80 DB is too loud to some.

I cannot listen to distortion at 80 DB because it is too loud. By dynamic well recorded music is a different story.

Bottom line, an amp should be sized so that power compression does not alter the sound. It should not clip.

There are companies that provide tremendous power and reasonable prices so enthusiasts might oversize their amps
Amps that handle peaks and do not clip, don't get stressed or hot will last a good long time.
Now, where could I find an enthusiast who does that...

- Rich

The speaker engineers recommend up to 250WP amp for the OP's speakers.

So your argument is that he needs 600WPC amp because a 200-250WPC amp might clip?

Or that if he uses an AVR, it would blow his speakers at high volume, but it won't blow his speakers at high volume if he uses a 600W amp?

Or are you saying he needs a 200-250W amp?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Now I have a pair of focal 926 towers ....
I listen to music at low to moderate levels.

Those speakers have a sensitivity of 91.5dB/2.83v/m, nominal impedance of 8 ohms, and power recommendation of 40-250W.

So IMO, most people would need about 40-250WPC amps, not 600W.

With sensitivity of 91.5dB/2.83v/m, 60Wpc into 5 channel continuous (from official spec), 12ft distance, 5 speakers near the wall = 108dB SPL at listening position. (-3db if speakers away from boundaries)
THX recommends 85+20db peaks. So you're covered there.

Now if you like to damage the hearing, a 200Wpc amp with same environment would provide 113dB
Questions?

I agree with ADTG, 600Wpc amp would do nothing but allow OP to damage speakers/ears or both

 

[RichB]

The speaker engineers recommend up to 250WP amp for the OP's speakers.

So your argument is that he needs 600WPC amp because a 200-250WPC amp might clip?

Or that if he uses an AVR, it would blow his speakers at high volume, but it won't blow his speakers at high volume if he uses a 600W amp?

No, my argument is that sizing an amp is difficult and a musical peak can be tolerated by most speakers.
That may be a peak or an RMS number. If it is an RMS number than the crest is 3DB higher so the peak power would be 400-500 WPC peak.

If your speakers can handle the power, then give it to them cleanly. There are quality reasonably priced amps out there.
My argument is that if you can get an $750 amp that wont clip, that would hurt your speakers when using some common sense.
Buy an amp that is affordable that will not clip for that listener in their room.

AVRs are clip nicely these days, long before most listeners recognize distortion, they have failed to produce the power that the source material required. I can turn up my Yamaha A820 to where I know it is running out of gas, but it sounds ok.

Amps can include distortion limiters. Such a design will simply not produce the peak power, the more you turn them up the more the average power will increase but not the peaks. The result, power compression.
Some will never push their AVR to that level, but there is simply no way to easily determine at what point, with what source material that it occurs.

- Rich