help me choose a sub (new constraints)

[Sylar]

I am looking for a good sub...50% music. Prefer a tight musical sub. Room is just about 14x12.

But my constraints are..

1. It should weigh lesser than 60 pounds (Including shipping weight).
2. Price around 500$. (If higher do suggest).

Reasons for constraints, need to carry it while travelling back to India, and 80 pound subs is too heavy to make someone else carry.
$500 constraint is bcos Import duty is waived for electronic goods less than $500 (I am not rigid here...but I know most subs are like at least 80 lbs at this price)

Edit:
Forgot one more requirement. It should have dual voltage capability.

 

[FirstReflection]

Whelp, my first choice would still be the Rythmik FV12. Perfect choice for a 50/50 home theatre/music subwoofer IMO. Great extension and tight, controlled performance.

It meets the $500 requirement right now as it is on sale for $499. But its shipping weight is 80 lbs.

So I'll have a gander at some other options and post again in a bit

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Where are a several good subs at $500 but all of them weight 80lbs

HSU VTF-1 is 56lbs, $400 + 45 shipping - and would be fine for both ht and music in small to medium rooms (up to 3000 sq/ft)

 

[FirstReflection]

OK, so no advantage with the HSU VTF-2 MK3. It's on sale for $509 right now and also has a shipping weight of 80 lbs. I like the VTF-2 MK3 a lot, but I prefer the FV12 by a small margin, so there's no price or weight or performance reason to go with the VTF-2 MK3.

If you drop down to the HSU STF-2, now you easily hit your price and shipping weight goals. $349 and 44 lbs. But you're giving up extension for that really deep bass with the STF-2. Make no mistake, I still like the STF-2 a lot. For your room size, its output would be perfectly fine and for almost all music, it would perform like a champ. But it does lack that last octave of really deep bass, so it's just something to be aware of.

Elemental Designs' A2-300 fits your price requirement at $415 (so long as you stick with the basic black finish) but it's got a 69 lbs. shipping weight. It's also showing as "in stock" on the edesignaudio.com website, which is good since eD can sometimes have long wait times for backordered items. You'll have the extension and output with the A2-300, but it won't be quite as tight and controlled for music. At the lower price points, eD tends to go a bit more for extension and "slam" by giving up a bit of transient response and control. That's a great trade off to make for movies, but given that you want 50% music, I'm a little less keen on this choice. That said, it's still a very good subwoofer and huge upgrade from any HTiB sub

eD also has the A2-250 at $350 and 58 lbs. But you're giving up even more in the way of extension, output and overall performance. You have the budget for something a bit nicer, so it would be preferrable to make use of the extra funds, I think

Over at Emotiva, there's the Ultra Sub 12, which is being cleared out as the new Emotiva X-Ref subs come in. At $429 and 52 lbs. shipping weight, it hits your requirements. It's the first sealed sub that I've mentioned. And, as expected, it won't have the super deep bass extension that you might want for movies. Great choice for music, but you've got to expect a higher roll-off point with the sealed design.

Velodyne's gone internet direct. But they don't really have anything that I would recommend over the other brands that I've mentioned so far at this price. About their best under-$500 offering is the 10" DLS-3750 at $499 and 55lbs. But it has less extension than the STF-2 from HSU at a considerably higher price, so I see little reason to go Velodyne at this point.

It's tough! But those appear to be your options. Honestly, if you can make the 80 lbs. shipping weight of the Rythmik FV12 work somehow, that really is head-and-shoulders above the rest - except for the HSU VTF-2 MK3, but there's no reason to choose the VTF-2 MK3 over the FV12...not price, weight or performance. After that, personally, I think I'd drop down to the HSU STF-2. If you have to hit that 60 lbs. weight limit, you might as well save some cash and give up as little in the way of performance as possible. You won't get the super deep extension with the STF-2, but you'll get more than enough output for your small room and you'll get really nice music performance. Certainly no slouch for movies either, but it just gives up that last, lowest octave that the FV12 can deliver.

Hope that helps!

 

[Sylar]

The STF2 seems decent, if it is tight. Don't see much of a difference in specs between VTF1 and STF2.
A2-300 is heavier than what I like it to be. I read a thread on AVS recently something regarding amp failures of ED. Either way since you mentioned it is not tight, I'll pass.

Great choice for music, but you've got to expect a higher roll-off point with the sealed design.

I didnt follow what you meant by higher roll off point.

This looks ugly when compared to the flat response of FV12. Got the response for STF2, not sure what to make of it.
Wonder what my room response is like.


The FV12 comes upto $1200, if shipped.
While travelling one could carry it along, but it's above the luggage limit and is pretty heavy to expect my friend to carry it. Instead, If I can get a decent sub for now at $400 then i could probably get a TV instead.
I am willing to compromise a little at the lower end.

I see that the STF2 is back firing. is it placement sensitive?

 

[Sylar]

The Emotiva is off the list too cos it does not accept 220V.

This leaves me with STF2 & VTF1 from what was suggested. Any reasons why I shd consider one over the other? What about Inputs, the stf seems to lack something compared to the VTF, not sure if this is of significance. (I have a Marantz 7005 receiver).

The STF2 mentions, "120/240 V Capable - Yes, switchable at the factory with internal jumper"
I did a quick search not many queries on this. I presume as soon as I purchase, I would require to inform HSU I want this switched to 240V region?

 

[jcl]

Where are a several good subs at $500 but all of them weight 80lbs

HSU VTF-1 is 56lbs, $400 + 45 shipping - and would be fine for both ht and music in small to medium rooms (up to 3000 sq/ft)

Think you mean 3000 cubic feet, not square feet? 3000 sq ft is a good sized house.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Think you mean 3000 cubic feet, not square feet? 3000 sq ft is a good sized house.

yes feet ^ 2

 

[shadyJ]

The Emotiva is off the list too cos it does not accept 220V.

This leaves me with STF2 & VTF1 from what was suggested. Any reasons why I shd consider one over the other? What about Inputs, the stf seems to lack something compared to the VTF, not sure if this is of significance. (I have a Marantz 7005 receiver).

The STF2 mentions, "120/240 V Capable - Yes, switchable at the factory with internal jumper"
I did a quick search not many queries on this. I presume as soon as I purchase, I would require to inform HSU I want this switched to 240V region?

The STF2 lacks the variable tuning of the VTF1. The STF2 is pretty much a VTF1 but stuck in its maximum extension mode. The VTF1 can sacrifice extension for more output which is not something you can do with the STF2. Under your restrictions I would get the best sub I possibly could, so I would go for the VTF1. In its max output mode it should be bangin' pretty hard.

 

[ObsceneJesster]

The Emotiva is off the list too cos it does not accept 220V.

This leaves me with STF2 & VTF1 from what was suggested. Any reasons why I shd consider one over the other? What about Inputs, the stf seems to lack something compared to the VTF, not sure if this is of significance. (I have a Marantz 7005 receiver).

The STF2 mentions, "120/240 V Capable - Yes, switchable at the factory with internal jumper"
I did a quick search not many queries on this. I presume as soon as I purchase, I would require to inform HSU I want this switched to 240V region?

Which Emotiva SUB doesn't except 220? The ultra 12 or the X-Ref 12? Or both? I thought I read somewhere that the X-Ref 12 could take 220 or 230?

 

[FirstReflection]

As mentioned, the HSU STF-2 is essentially the same as the VTF-1 when the VTF-1 is in "max extension" mode. The VTF-1 allows you to flip a switch and unplug a second port on the back so that it can play louder, but not as deep. The VTF-1 also has some extra bracing, which is why it is a bit heavier.

Personally, for your situation, I don't really see a reason to pay more for the VTF-1. Your room size is small, so extra output is not needed at all. And with 50% of your listening being movies, I think you're going to want that extra bit of extension vs. the extra output that you do not need. The bit of extra bracing in the VTF-1 is nice, but it's mostly there because of the second port (more holes means you need more bracing to make the cabinet stiff!). Honestly, the STF-2 is what I would choose in your situation. And I'm sure the little bit lower price and little bit lower weight are actually advantages in your case

The STF-2 does not lack any inputs that you would need. All you need is that lone RCA "LFE In" connection to go with the "Sub Out" connection on the back of your Marantz. The VTF-1 offers Left and Right inputs for old, old stereo receivers that did not have dedicated subwoofer outputs. But that is not the case here - you have a subwoofer output on your Marantz, so there are no worries about inputs

When I was talking about a "higher roll-off point", I was talking about the frequency at which the subwoofer starts to roll-off and get quieter. A "higher roll-off point" just means that the sub starts to get quieter at a higher frequency. So the Emotiva Ultra-12 plays nice and flat down to about 35-40Hz. Then it starts to get quieter and quieter the lower you go from there. On the other hand, the STF-2 plays nice and flat all the way down to about 28-30Hz, then it gets rapidly quieter below that.

With a sealed subwoofer, the only source of sound is the driver itself. When it pushes out, because the cabinet behind it is sealed, a vacuum forms inside the cabinet that wants to "suck" the driver back in. When the driver pulls in, the sealed air in the cabinet forms pressure that wants to "push" the driver back out. As a result, it gets harder and harder to move the driver further in and out, which is why the expensive, sealed subwoofers use massively powerful amps!

With a ported subwoofer, the air is free to move in and out of the cabinet, so no vacuum effect and no pressure effect to work against the movement of the driver. The port in the cabinet also lets the cabinet act rather like the hollow body of an acoustic guitar. The cabinet itself resonates and amplifies the sound out of the port through resonant reinforcement. The end result is that a ported subwoofer that has the same size driver and the same size amp as a sealed version can play lower and louder. But because the cabinet itself is making some of the sound, it isn't always a "tight" and "clean" as the sealed subwoofer. A well-designed ported subwoofer though can still sound "clean" and "tight" though, and the HSU, SVSound and Rythmik (just to name a few) ported subwoofers are well-designed ported subs

Anywho, yeah, when the shipped price of the Rythmik FV12 jumps up to $1200 or so, it makes it a lot harder to recommend against the fairly small sacrifice of just the deepest bass by going with the HSU STF-2! Heck, maybe you could get a pair of STF-2

As for setting up the purchase with HSU, just e-mail them. They are extremely helpful and friendly and they will set up everything you need in the way of shipping the sub to you, having the correct voltage set, and possibly even preparing special packaging if you need that for importing or tax declaration of what-have-you. E-mail them. That's the best way to proceed. I think you'll be very impressed with their service

 

[Sylar]

Which Emotiva SUB doesn't except 220? The ultra 12 or the X-Ref 12? Or both? I thought I read somewhere that the X-Ref 12 could take 220 or 230?

Thats right. The website says that the new subs X-Ref 12 & 10 both have dual voltage. Whereas the Ultra 12 supports only 110V.

from their specs...

120 VAC 50/60 Hz or 230 VAC 50/60 Hz auto detecting

Auto Detecting?? What if this circuit gets messedup...wudnt a manual switch be safer for this?


X-Ref 12 is priced $630 and weighs 44 (With packing shd come to 60lbs). It plays down to 20Hz.
X-Ref 10 is priced $450 and weighs 33 (With packing shd come to 50lbs). It plays down to 25Hz.

How do they compare to the STF2? is it worth considering? Has anyone heard these yet...since they are pretty new.

For now will go for something that weighs less than 60lbs. Will consider upgrading in a year or 2, HiFi market is picking up in India...and I shd be able to sell these without much loss...could even get back what i spend.

 

[FirstReflection]

Sure the X-Ref subs from Emotiva are worth consideration! I only left them off of the list because they are either over your intended price range ($699 for the X-Ref 12) or at the top of your budget ($499 for the X-Ref 10), but IMO, not a better choice than the STF-2 given the higher price.

Emotiva's specs on the X-Ref and Ultra subs are a little bit misleading. They mention "typical in-room response" and give the frequency response. Well, sorry to say it, but those are completely useless figures. There's no such thing as a "typical room". "Typical in-room response" is code for, "our subs don't actually play this low on their own, but if you stuff them in a corner and allow the room boundaries to reinforce the lower notes with "room gain", you might or might not get extension down this low - although we won't tell you at what volume!"

It's not a real measurement. And I can tell you straight up that the X-Ref 12 isn't hitting 20Hz - at least not at any reasonably loud volume. The massive SVSound SB13-Plus DSP with its WAY more powerful driver, 1000 Watt Sledge amp and DSP processing can't even hit 20Hz with flat frequency response! The SB13-Plus starts to roll off up around 40Hz. So yeah, there's pretty much zero chance that the X-Ref 12 is hitting 20Hz. "Typical in-room response" is a bunch of malarkey.

A properly designed sealed sub - like the SVSound SB13-Plus - will have a roll off at the bottom end that is not very steep. So even though it starts to roll off at a higher frequency, if you make use of "room gain" and place it close to a corner, you can get frequency response that measures pretty flat and considerably lower than what the sub actually outputs all on its own. But unless you go through some pretty extensive measurements, there's no way to know ahead of time how your room is going to interact with the sub. Maybe corner placement a room gain will get you a nice, fairly flat, well extended response. But then again, maybe it will get you a giant bass null at your seating position!

So I personally much prefer to get a sub that can genuinely play as low as possible all on its own. If room gain happens to boost the lowest frequencies so that they are too loud, it's easy enough to knock those frequencies down with some very basic EQ. But if you don't luck out with room gain that perfectly boosts a sub that can't actually play that low on its own, there's nothing you can do! You can't just EQ boost more output that the subwoofer isn't able to produce! So personally, I'm not a fan of assuming that a higher roll-off frequency is ok and that your room will be a "typical" room where corner placement will magically even out and extend your sub's bass response.

Bottom line, personally, I'd still prefer the STF-2 for your situation. The X-Ref 10 gets you nothing - excpet a higher price tag. And the X-Ref 12 might perform better, but it all depends on your room AND you'd be going well over budget.