HELP: Legacy OR Monitor Audio 5.1 set-up? Huge $ decison that I do not want to regret

[addictaudio]

The directivity appears to be pretty narrow (I wouldn't know 100% without measurements) although it hardly seems "controlled".

Are you referring to the Legacy Signature SE or the MA GX 300?

 

[monkish54]

Are you referring to the Legacy Signature SE or the MA GX 300?

Sorry. The Legacy SE.

Correction: It isn't controlled. IDK what I was thinking when I said it didn't appear to be. It definitely isn't.

Also, it is fairly narrow with some drivers, and fairly wide with others. (Not good for imaging/soundstage.)

You could try one of the DIYSOUNDGROUP speakers!! You can't hear them first, but they are about $700/pr (or $630 if you only want it to go down to 47hz.) You might not be able to listen first, but it's a fraction of your budget and you can always sell them for cost..or close to it. I think they are much better suited for your room!

They are narrow, well designed, very sensitive, and only 14" wide and deep!

 

[addictaudio]

Wow, so much to learn. What do you refer as to being controlled? Did you look at the picture of the Signature SE with the new dual air motion tweeter? It has the dual ten-inch woofers, one seven inch midrange, and the new dual AMT, which imcorporates two ribbons. I really wanted to "treat" myself, and stay with one of the world renown speaker builders/manufacturers, especially when it is time to resell these. I want to get a set as an overhaul for a good ten years or so. That is what makes the decision so tough. It is a lot of money (to me) to spend on speakers. I know that some drop 30 - 50 K on speakers as if they were buying a pair of undies, but that is not my case.

 

[monkish54]

Wow, so much to learn.

Loudspeakers is a very dense subject!

What do you refer as to being controlled?

There are two directivites that people refer to. Controlled and constant. When a driver reproduces a frequency with a wavelength smaller than its surface area, it tends to beam (instead of 120 degrees beaming is, lets say 60 degrees). When you have multiple drivers reproducing the frequency range, large ones will have a narrower pattern with the same frequencies then smaller ones. When you have a driver hand off it's sound to another driver, you generally want the other driver to have the same pattern. So when you hand off the frequencies from a 3" midrange to a 7 inch driver the 7" will be beaming the sound. You go from a 120 or 90 degree (whatever degree) to a much narrower pattern very abruptly. Controlled directivity is when the pattern of the two drivers matches at the crossover frequency and then changes later on based on the second driver's dimensions. Constant directivity is when you design a speaker to have a specific degree throw at all (most) frequencies.

This video might help visualize "beaming"

http://www.kef.com/html/en/innovation/uni-q/index.html (click "Play movie")

Did you look at the picture of the Signature SE with the new dual air motion tweeter?

yes I did. I will give legacy one thing, the Ribbon super tweeter and tweeter are sexy!

I really wanted to "treat" myself, and stay with one of the world renown speaker builders/manufacturers, especially when it is time to resell these.

Then my advice to you is to look at KEF. That said, it wouldn't be a treat if you can get something better for cheaper!

I can see why you'd want to stay with the big brands. B&W, McIntosh, Bose (low end giant), etc. all have huge names that people respect (I'm seeing a trend here... ). It feels good to be able to own something others look up too and it will be easier to sell, but I still think there is better to be had. The other options may not hold the same world renown name, but they'll have a world class sound. Just remember...Bose is world renown..

I want to get a set as an overhaul for a good ten years or so. That is what makes the decision so tough.

I completely understand. If you want the Legacy or MAs, then go for them, but I don't think you'd get the best for your money.

I will have my philharmonics for at least 5-10 years. My first year is coming up soon.

It is a lot of money (to me) to spend on speakers.

It's more than I spent!

 

[monkish54]

I meant smaller than its diameter, not surface area. Sometimes I wonder how many times I was dropped on my head as a small child...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I used to own a Def Tech system: flagship BP7000SC for fronts, CLR3000 for center, BP7001SC for surrounds, and Triniy for sub.

I really loved that system. I thought they sound awesome for music and movies, even when compared to Revel Salon2, B&W 802D, Linkwitz Orion, RBH T3, DALI MS5, and everything else I've auditioned. Okay, maybe they didn't sound as great like 100% of the Salon2 or Orion or KEF Reference. Maybe they were 90% of those speakers. But I thought they sound every bit as good and detailed as anything else. My setup sounded amazing to me even when I compared them to all those world class speakers. In comparison subjectively.

They measured about +/-3.7dB on listening window on HTM review. So they were (are) NOT considered to be ultra-accurate speakers like Revel, KEF, PSB, Paradigm, Linkwitz, TAD, etc.

But they measured more accurately than a lot of other speakers like some B&W, Legacy, Wilson, Klipsch, Mirage, Martin Logan, Magnepan, etc.

If I had never been a member of AH or AVS or A-V-Revolution, etc, I would probably still own those Def Tech speakers and still enjoy the heck out of them.

Of course, I don't regret owning all the speakers I own now either.

That's my experience.

If AH measures the new Legacy and gets a FR of +/-6dB from 200Hz-10kHz, they will be continued to be labeled as "inaccurate" speakers for like forever.

If that does not bother you one tiny bit for the next 10 yrs, then there's no reason not to buy Legacy speakers. If you like them and enjoy them, that's what matters.

 

[addictaudio]

I wonder when AH is going to review the Focus SE? I e-mailed Gene, but have not heard back from him. Of course that I am interested in the Signature SE, but that would give us an idea. Like Gene said though, measurements are only a part of the process, and even some forms of measurements are innacurate; and that you can fabricate a sub-par speaker with inferior components that will measure well, but not sound great.

 

[addictaudio]

Honestly, with your eclectic listening tastes, which are remarkably similar to mine, I think you would really enjoy the Legacys, because they can bring enjoyment across genres and they are great for movies. I also like a lot of the bands you mentioned, as well as Toto, Ambrosia, Kansas, Eagles, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Sade, Diana Krall, etc.

But you might like the MA just as well or better, and you just have to listen to both with some of your own music and decide which you like best. If I were buying speakers now, I probably would not go with Legacy again, just because I would want to try something from a big high end manufacturer, probably MA, Dynaudio, Revel, Focal, Sonus Faber, etc.

Yup, we have the same taste. Since I have never owned neither, that is what makes the decision hard.

 

[monkish54]

If that does not bother you one tiny bit for the next 10 yrs, then there's no reason not to buy Legacy speakers. If you like them and enjoy them, that's what matters.

I completely agree. My only worry is once those puppies get into his room, they are going to sound much different. Timbre, imaging, & soundstage will likely all change.

Also, try listening to an ultra accurate speaker. You might end up enjoying it more than a colored speaker.

To give you an idea how strongly I feel about him going with a narrow directivity speaker, ADTG, he could tell me he is buying the Salon 2, and I'd advise him against it! :O

 

[addictaudio]

I completely agree. My only worry is once those puppies get into his room, they are going to sound much different. Timbre, imaging, & soundstage will likely all change.

Also, try listening to an ultra accurate speaker. You might end up enjoying it more than a colored speaker.

To give you an idea how strongly I feel about him going with a narrow directivity speaker, ADTG, he could tell me he is buying the Salon 2, and I'd advise him against it! :O

Unfortunately, any and all speakers will sound differently when inside of the room, when compared to the environment that it was auditioned in.

 

[monkish54]

Unfortunately, any and all speakers will sound differently when inside of the room, when compared to the environment that it was auditioned in.

Sure. Below the transition frequency all goes to hell. Above it, your room will absorb and reflect some frequencies. This will happen at different frequencies than in the dealer room. However, above the transition, the room plays much less of a role and some speakers will be better in certain rooms. In your case, a narrow directivity speaker is preferred. A wide directivity speaker, will probably be even worse than the Legacy..although you might enjoy the mucked up sound of, say, the Salon 2 in-room than that of the Legacy. That is pure preference.

 

[Chu Gai]

It would only be a wrong choice if the OP doesn't like it. If he got what he wanted, I'm happy..even if it wasn't what I would have picked. : D It's his money not mine.

That said, if he asked what I would recommend, Legacy, Wilson, B&W, and Tyler would not be on that list!

KEF, TAD, Revel, JBL Pro, Philharmonic Audio, Ascend, Vapor Audio, Gedlee, Soundfield Audio would be on that list.

I would caution anyone from considering Vapor Audio for a number of reasons.

They operate in MO and according to a conversation I had with MO Secretary of State's office, in order to carry out business in that state under a name other than your own, one is required to register with the state. I can find no business entity with that name in MO.

A perusal of their website contains no information, other than PayPal, as to how payment is made. 50% down and the balance upon completion seems to be the norm. The website also does not have information regarding anything about a warranty. In fact, Ryan recently said,

I'm under no obligation to do so, he received a custom built to his specifications product under no representation of warranty, period.

While I can't speak for all deliveries, it's not unknown to have delays that have extended well past a year. As I'm sure you know, your ability to recover your monies if there are problems as by disputing the charge with your CC company, assuming you linked your PayPal account to that, is limited if sufficient time has passed. That time can pass rather quickly if you try to resolve a dispute directly with the seller and not promptly engage PayPal's Mediation service.

Lastly, there have been known problems with fit and finish and not all have been resolved favorably.

 

[bajaed]

I believe chu gai is someone who is involved, or has corresponded with, a customer of Vapor who is (in my opinion)being extremely unreasonable in letting the company repair some speakers that were damaged in shipping.

The ownership of Vapor has begged this customer for months to return the speakers to them so they can be fully repaired at no charge. The customer refuses to do so and shows no desire for the issue to be resolved. Instead he stalks search engines for any message board mentions of Vapor and runs to those sites to try and trash the company.

Members of all the boards he tries this on quickly see how unreasonable this person is and all suggest the same thing:
Send the speakers back for repair or leave the board as they get tired of his MO.

I have corresponded with other Vapor owners who rave about the sound, incredibly high quality of the components used and the beautifully veneered finishes of these speakers. I have read the same from dozens of professional reviewers who have listened to many different pairs of Vapor speakers at audio shows across the country.

Because they are hand made one pair at a time, build times vary and can take a while in some cases. Based on what I have learned, they are worth waiting for.

FYI, my only tie to Vapor is two emails and a brief phone call last summer inquiring about their product. I am planning on ordering a pair as soon as I finish some amp and cartridge upgrades.

No disrespect meant towards chu gai as I see he has a long history of posting here and this is my first. Just wanted to share my opinion as I have been following the situation for some time.

 

[Chu Gai]

Let's ignore for the moment that Vapor Audio has not been and apparently has not registered the business entity with the state of Missouri. After all, just because the Secretary of State requires that entities that operate under a different name other than the person who owns them, it's OK to just ignore this. After all, we can always justify bad behavior by pointing at other bad behavior as precedents.

Let's ignore for the moment that nowhere on the website does it state what the return policy is. Nor does it state who picks up the charges. Nor does it state how the monies are refunded. Let's ignore that.

Let's ignore for the moment that there is no mention of any warranty and what the terms of that warranty are.

Let's ignore for the moment that the owner has stated he's under no obligation to refund monies because the speakers are custom even though every speaker is custom and that is supposed to be one of the selling points.

Let's ignore for the moment that the owner has not developed nor tested packaging for what he sells so as to ensure safe transit. While we're at it, let's forget that there was no apparent damage to that person's speakers due to shipping although the shipping damage to his stands was exacerbated by their poor construction (pictures available on request). While we're in such a forgetful mood, let's also forget that when the speakers were shipped by UPS, a box was checked stating they were a gift so that even if there was damage the recipient was SOL.

However, let's acknowledge that Vapor Audio takes cash, I'd imagine checks after they clear, wire transfers, and of course the ubiquitous PayPal. If you've got a dispute, only PayPal offers the ability to settle it. It's not nearly as effective as a Credit Card though is it? So, it's puzzling to me just why a business (unregistered in the state of MO) would not take the usual credit cards unless of course they would prefer to not to have to deal with the possibility of chargebacks to their account.

And since it's the holiday season, let's also acknowledge that you're right about there being satisfied customers. Certainly there are and one can read about them. But let us also acknowledge there have been other dissatisfied customers who have received damaged product. Or product with substandard workmanship that shipped. Or product that was shipped defective and should have been scrapped but instead looked to be painted over in order to disguise the defects. So they have patched veneer and it looks it. Maybe some kept it but some I know just wound up selling their speakers right away. They don't tell you the real reason because if they did the selling price would be lower and they just might have to absorb a loss of more than $800 plus the S/H.

Further, while we're acknowledging things, let's keep in mind that some of the positive reviews appear to have come from the owner of Vapor Audio who has posted under a different nickname (screen capture available on request). And let us not be so naive to think the owner would dare select a speaker that was any less than perfect in appearance to exhibit. What sort of a statement would any manufacturer send if he displayed scratch and dent products?

As to the explanation that the speakers are hand made being a sufficient reason for delays, I find this rather wanting. Perhaps Vapor Audio can look to Henry Ford and the concept of mass production. Really, why just build one Cirrus or whatever box at a time. Why not fire up the old CNC machine and crank out enough material to build 10 cabinets. Then assemble each one and when the request comes in, put the veneer the customer wants, the crossover parts they wants and be done with it in a couple of days? That is of course unless Vapor doesn't have money to do so and relies on the customer's down payment to fund the work. Poor capitalization and utilization of resources I'd say. In the meantime, folks will be given an estimated date which invariably will increase. Sometimes it goes to 7-8 months but waiting close to a year and a half is not unknown.

So, no disrespect to you either but there are plenty of reasons to write Caveat Emptor in quite large letters here.

 

[addictaudio]

Folks, if I may kindly ask, let us please keep the discussion of Vapor Audio out of this thread. Thanks.

 

[Chu Gai]

NP. I'm done.

 

[bajaed]

Chu Gai, sending you a pm.

 

[bajaed]

Not able to PM yet as I don't have enough posts.

In the meantime, I would love to hear some opinions from those who have heard a Raal tweeter on the sound of it compared to some of the nicer conventional tweeters.

 

[monkish54]

Not able to PM yet as I don't have enough posts.

In the meantime, I would love to hear some opinions from those who have heard a Raal tweeter on the sound of it compared to some of the nicer conventional tweeters.

I will PM you about that.

 

[HifiSystems1]

That is very poor advice. Measurements are easy to manipulate and misinterpret.

It's extremely easy to use junk parts and a simplistic crossover in a two-way speaker system to produce a flat on-axis response curve at low power levels.

It's very difficult to equate loudspeaker measurements to audible preference and large speakers with multiple drivers, sometimes on multiple cabinet faces are very challenging to properly measure.

Wise words from Gene!

My recommendation to the original poster is to go with the Legacys. They are the better performers, and their fit and finish is superior. The Legacy dual AMT is far superior to the Monitor Audio top end and the Legacy is more dynamic.

Some people have brought up articles on 6 year old Legacy speakers- the latest versions of their speakers blow the old ones out of the water. To the people concerned about measurements- these are used as reference speakers by many recording professionals daily. They use them as tools to actually create the music we listen to- I think that speaks a lot more to real world applications!

I was speaking to a dealer- Sono Luminus, the Grammy winning record label was again nominated for two more Grammys that were all mixed and mastered on the Legacys.

A quick look on their site does show third party measurements, where they were compared Legacy to speakers costing 8 times more: Focus SE Compared to $40K-$80K Benchmarks in Stereo Prestige Review | Reviews | Legacy Audio - Building the World's Finest Audio Systems

Home Theater Shack says the same “True to Legacy's claims, I measured the Focus SE's on their own flat to 21Hz in my room with usable extension all the way down to 18Hz!" Legacy Focus SE & Marquis HD Review by Home Theater Shack | Reviews | Legacy Audio - Building the World's Finest Audio Systems

I’d much rather hear about real world success in normal rooms and use by the pros like this.
BTW I heard Emotiva with Legacy at an audio show- sounded great!