HELP: Legacy OR Monitor Audio 5.1 set-up? Huge $ decison that I do not want to regret

[Irvrobinson]

Is a speaker with generally more woofers/midrange better/sound better than one with fewer drivers?

Not necessarily. Execution is everything. A speaker with more and larger drivers may play louder and with lower distortion if everything is equal, but nothing is equal between speaker brands, so you can't tell.

 

[monkish54]

They said that the songs were digitally remastered, which I was under the impression would sound much better than when originally recorded, but that was not the case at all.

That's because "digitally remastered for 20xx" really means "We added TONS of dynamic range compression so we can compete in the loudness war!" I NEVER buy remasters for that reason. **

So what you all are saying is that accurate speakers do not reproduce rock music well?

It's not rock so much (at all) as it is poor recordings. It just so happens most rock was/is recorded poorly. There is some good rock, but most is not very good.

Is a speaker with generally more woofers/midrange better/sound better than one with fewer drivers?

No. In fact, many times it is worse do to constructive/destructive interference. For instance, you don't often see multiple tweeters in a speaker, this is because they play high frequencies (very short wavelengths) and the separation between drivers will cause a dips/peaks in the response. That said, multiple bass drivers is seldom a bad thing. Power compression and voice coil modulation can be greatly reduced with the addition of multiple (and large) woofers. (See Salon 2, KEF Blade, TAD Reference One) The wavelengths are huge which allows the drivers to act as a single source (no interference) when separated.

That said, the larger the driver, the better the power handling (most of the time). I'd be more worried about the woofer size than midrange size if power handling is an issue. Woofers tend to work MUCH harder. Also sensitivity is very important. If my speaker is 98db sensitive a 3" midrange isn't going to need much power at all to get loud...therefore power handling wont be much of an issue (unless it is VERY poor...so poor it's unlikely.)

**I'm sure there are some good remasters, but most of the time...they are worse than the original.

 

[addictaudio]

Not necessarily. Execution is everything. A speaker with more and larger drivers may play louder and with lower distortion if everything is equal, but nothing is equal between speaker brands, so you can't tell.

I notice that the Legacy uses larger drivers and operate at a higher rated sensitivity. Most of their speakers are rated between 92 - 94 decibles or so. On the other hand, speakers like Revel, Phillarmonic, and Salk appear to operate in between 85 - 88 decibles. Why is that? From what I have seen, it appears like the most accurate speakers operate at a lower sensitivity? Additionally, I have noticed that the higher end speakers are rated at 4-ohms, versus 8. Why is that? For instance, the MA GX line is rated at 8 ohms, while the Platinum PL line is rated at 4 ohms. Legacy rates all of their speakers at 4 ohms.

 

[monkish54]

I notice that the Legacy uses larger drivers and operate at a higher rated sensitivity. Most of their speakers are rated between 92 - 94 decibles or so.

The Legacy are built to be very dynamic.

From what I have seen, it appears like the most accurate speakers operate at a lower sensitivity?

This is due to the trade offs of high sensitivity. There are some very accurate high sensitivity speakers, but many more accurate low sensitivity. I would NEVER judge a speaker solely based upon sensitivity, but that is a trend that has developed. Just the law of trade-offs.

 

[addictaudio]

I guess since now an Emotiva XPA-5 will be driving the speakers that I purchased, sensitivity will not be as much of an issue as it was when I was planning in only driving them with a Denon 4311. Now the 4311 will only be the source/pre-amp, while the Emo will provide the power. It provides 200 watts per channel in 8-ohms, or 300 watts per channel in 4-ohms. So here are some overall thoughts:

1) The MA GX 300 (ported), Center G350C (sealed) and GXFX (sealed)surrounds are all rater at 8 ohms, 90 decible sensitivity, and all have the same tweeter rated up to the same 60K upper frequency. Of course the lower frequencies will differ slightly. Again, no plus or minus ratings and no charts either. The GX 300's are rater to dip down to 30 HZ, but who knows if that is anechoic, in-room, etc...

2) The Legacy Signature SE (sealed), Silverscreen center (ported), and Deco surrounds (ported) are all rated at 4 ohms, the sensitivity rating varies between I believe 92 decibles to 94'ish or so between the speakers, all have a slight variation of ribbons as well. The Signature SE has the new dual air motion tweeter (rated to 30K), the Silverscreen center basically has the same upper portion of that tweeter (rated to 25K), and the Deco has a spiral ribbon tweeter (rated to 22K).

3) The MA GX 300's have twin 6 1/2 inch woofers, 4-inch midrange, and the ribbon, the Center GX 350C has the same exact configuration, and the GXFX surround are either dipole or omnipole.

4) The Legacy Signature SE has two 10-inch woofers,a seven inch midrange, and the dual AMT. The Silverscreen center has two 8-inch woofers, a 5 1/4 inch midrange, and a ribbon tweeter as well. The Deco surround isdirect firing with one 8 inch woofer and a spiral ribbon tweeter.

Does the fact that MA front stage have the exact same driver configuration, same decible rating, and same exact tweeter and upper range frequency response, make them better timbre matched?

 

[addictaudio]

So a "dynamic" speaker does not mean that it is "accurate, and an "accurate" speaker does not equate to it being "dynamic" either, right?

PS: I have been trying to "THANK" many of you, but for some reason when trying to do so from my desktop, it prompts me to a page that says I am not allowed to "THANK" anyone. Oddly, I can thank via my cell phone, LOL. Any way, here is a HUGE THANK YOU to ALL of you.

 

[monkish54]

So a "dynamic" speaker does not mean that it is "accurate, and an "accurate" speaker does not equate to it being "dynamic" either, right?

A dynamic speaker is just one that can play loudly without gross amounts of distortion (and destruction). One could argue that you would need dynamics to be accurate. For instance drums are very loud, and to accurately reproduce them you would have to have a speaker that can play that loud. However, unless you listen VERY at very high SPLs, I wouldn't argue that dynamics are vital to accuracy. There are of course exceptions.

That said, sensitivity is not the only spec for dynamics. The Salon 2 is not very sensitive, but it can play loudly with the rest of them!

Dynamics are never a bad thing, but it isn't the end-all-be-all of speaker decision. Just another factor. If you listen VERY loudly dynamics are obviously a must, as you don't want to destroy the speaker, but for most listening habits, 90% of speakers are dynamic enough.

Even my Phil 2s at a pathetic 84.5db/1 watt play much louder than I care to listen. If you have a very large space, dynamics become more of an issue.

 

[addictaudio]

I ALWAYS listen very loudly. I like to "immerse" myself with sound. Thus I LOVE and CRAVE musical speakers that will sound good with ALL variety of music, as I have many The listening space is very small (14 x 10 or so den). I think thatin this space with the XPA 5, I should not have any problem with driving most of any good quality speaker loudly with minimal distortion. The SVS PB 12 PLUS 2 will handle the deep bass. I have the subwoofer with all three ports plugged and crossover/frequency response disabled.

In Summary, I am searching for speakers/sound that will do well with anything and everything that I through at them, if one does exist at all?

 

[monkish54]

All have the same tweeter rated up to the same 60K upper frequency.

If you can hear past 20khz (or even 20khz) I'll give you $5 toward your speakers. Don't worry about anything over 20khz!

Again, no plus or minus ratings and no charts either.

That's scary. Email the company and ask for a tolerance/graph. If they don't have enough confidence to display it, why should I have any confidence in their design?? Also, why should I reward their lack of transparency? (..or even decency..putting a FR without tolerance is deceitful, IMO. It misleads people who don't understand, and gives absolutely NO info for those who do! If they know what the frequency range is, they know what the tolerance is.)

GXFX surround are either dipole or omnipole.

I prefer monopole for rears. Preferably a coaxial. (KEF for the win!)

Does the fact that MA front stage have the exact same driver configuration, same decible rating, and same exact tweeter and upper range frequency response, make them better timbre matched?

Same db rating, not really. You'd set the db level to match them when you get them home anyway.

Same exact tweeter...maybe. If they use they cross over at the same frequency then yes.

Same exact upper range FR...not so much. You aren't talking about FR, but frequency range. Anything over 20khz is marketing nonsense. You can't hear it. Ignore their nonsense. xD

 

[monkish54]

I ALWAYS listen very loudly.

How loud is very loudly? Do have a specific SPL you can throw out?

The listening space is very small (14 x 10 or so den). I think thatin this space with the XPA 5, I should not have any problem with driving most of any good quality speaker loudly with minimal distortion.

You won't have any problems! You're room is tiny. My old room was 13 X 10...bleh. The Philharmonics were sooo mad at me.

Have you considered narrow directivity speakers? Lot of them are internet direct. Although, many KEF speakers have narrow directivity. This would be much better for you, than say, Philharmonics, Revels, etc!

I am searching for speakers/sound that will do well with anything and everything that I throw at them, if one does exist at all?

Unfortunately, I don't think one does. It really depends. The Salon 2, Philharmonic, KEF Blade, TAD Reference One will work will ALL music, but they won't work with all recordings. Bad recordings will just sound bad. That's the nature of accurate speakers...and also the beauty. Good recordings will sound amazing. Don't be afraid to buy speakers that will encourage you to find decent recordings. There are many to be purchased!

In your space, a narrow directivity speaker is most definitely the way to go!

 

[Irvrobinson]

I notice that the Legacy uses larger drivers and operate at a higher rated sensitivity. Most of their speakers are rated between 92 - 94 decibles or so. On the other hand, speakers like Revel, Phillarmonic, and Salk appear to operate in between 85 - 88 decibles. Why is that? From what I have seen, it appears like the most accurate speakers operate at a lower sensitivity? Additionally, I have noticed that the higher end speakers are rated at 4-ohms, versus 8. Why is that? For instance, the MA GX line is rated at 8 ohms, while the Platinum PL line is rated at 4 ohms. Legacy rates all of their speakers at 4 ohms.

Now you're delving into a course on driver and speaker system design. I'm not an expert, so I'm going to defer to others that are for definitive answers.

 

[monkish54]

Speaking of your room, that's a pretty a small place to cram 5 speakers and a giant sub. Perhaps you should stick to 2.1 and stick more money in a pair...Do you intend to change rooms any time soon?

 

[Irvrobinson]

I ALWAYS listen very loudly. I like to "immerse" myself with sound. Thus I LOVE and CRAVE musical speakers that will sound good with ALL variety of music, as I have many The listening space is very small (14 x 10 or so den). I think thatin this space with the XPA 5, I should not have any problem with driving most of any good quality speaker loudly with minimal distortion. The SVS PB 12 PLUS 2 will handle the deep bass. I have the subwoofer with all three ports plugged and crossover/frequency response disabled.

In Summary, I am searching for speakers/sound that will do well with anything and everything that I through at them, if one does exist at all?

That 14x10 listening room is pretty small for a Legacy tower speaker. For one thing, sitting far enough for letting the drivers blend and getting good imaging must be a challenge.

 

[monkish54]

You're dialing up the contrast too high. Her point is simply that not listening to music you love because your notion of a "good" audio system is making your favorite music sound like crap is the wrong strategy. I can see her point too. There's no one "right" sound for rock music. The bass player or the guitar player could adjust their amps differently, or the drummer's bass drum is in a different position, as it's a completely different sound balance. If the recording sounds thin, use EQ (or colored speakers for permanent EQ).

I do not disagree. I actually asked simply to make a joke.

I definitely see your wife's point!

 

[addictaudio]

I don't know how to post pictures here. The good thing about the legacy Signature SE, is that it is sealed, so it can be placed near wall boundaries. Regardless, I will have around 7 feet from the listening position to the towers and center channel, which is enough room. The surrounds will be mounted on the walls to the side of the listening position. This is the only location. It is a tight fit, but not too bad. I have had two previous systems in this same room.

 

[monkish54]

I don't know how to post pictures here. The good thing about the legacy Signature SE, is that it is sealed, so it can be placed near wall boundaries.

You can post pictures by clicking the little pic icon and pasting the url in the box. If the pic is on your PC upload it to imageshack.com for free.

sadly for us all..that is a very simplistic view. You're not wrong, mind you, but there is more to the story. Directivity should be taken into account. Not to mention the comb filtering from the walls so close!

Regardless, I will have around 7 feet from the listening position to the towers and center channel, which is enough room.

The problem is speaker to side wall!

The surrounds will be mounted on the walls to the side of the listening position.

This also presents a problem. BSC will need to be tweaked should you use a surround on-wall. Unless the surrounds are specified to be on-wall, you should not use them.

It is a tight fit, but not too bad. I have had two previous systems in this same room.

A system "optimized" for that room, will be much better than a random sealed speaker.

At this point, demoing speakers in a shop is almost pointless. Your dimensions are simply too small for the comparison to be anywhere near realistic. What you need is a pair of On-wall speakers (or in-wall if you prefer) for 4.1 movies and a narrow directivity pair of fronts for 2.1 (or 4.1) music.

Most systems you put in there will be a shadow of their large room selves!

 

[addictaudio]

The surrounds are made specifically to be placed on wall. The towers will have around 2 feet to the side wall boundaries and about the same to the rear. What are narrow directivity towers? Does thus mean that the sound is more directional, versus mire dispersed? What is BSC?

 

[mtrot]

OK. The following are my listening habits. I mostly will be using the system in a 5.1 configuration with either musical Blue Ray's or movies, along with watching satelite Direct TV. I would say around 50% music (Blue Ray DVD) and 50% TV and movies. I will not be using it as a two channel system, maybe rarely. I listen to a variety of music. I like Phil Collins, Andrea Bocelli, Sarah Brightman, Phantom of the Opera, and absolutely LOVE all music from the 80's, such as: REO Speedwagon, Journey, Foreigner, etc.. One thing that you have all pointed out that I noticed. I purchased the Time Life Collection of around 8 CD's with mostly music from the 80's, and the recording sounds horrible with mostly any speaker. They said that the songs were digitally remastered, which I was under the impression would sound much better than when originally recorded, but that was not the case at all.

So what you all are saying is that accurate speakers do not reproduce rock music well? I wish that the FR charts were available for the newly released/improved Legacy speakers. Is a speaker with generally more woofers/midrange better/sound better than one with fewer drivers? I know that Legacy likes to use more/larger drivers than some other brands. For instance, the Legacy Signature SE has two 10-inch woofers, one 7-inch midrange, and the new dual air motion tweeter (one tweeter being 4 inches and the other one inch tweeter for super high frequencies). On the other hand, the MA GX 300 tower (largest tower in the GX line), only has two 6 1/2-inch woofers, a 4-inch midrange), and the ribbon tweeter. I know that cabinet design along with crossover points make difference in the sound reproduction. I did not get a chance to play the Time Life Recordings with the MA's (as we played Blue Ray), but did with the Legacy as those were auditioned in two channel mode. The Time Life recording did not sound good with the Legacy. Does this mean that those speakers were accurate? Who knows. The Legacy's were in a large bright waiting room, and not in the audition treated. We moved them in to a dedicated audio room that they perform all of the auditions, played another recording, and they sounded night and day compared to the other room with the Time Life recording. Also, the speakers were around 4 to 5 feet from the back wall and around the same from the side walls, which quite frankly is probably too far in either direction, and would most likely sound better with closer boundaries.

Honestly, with your eclectic listening tastes, which are remarkably similar to mine, I think you would really enjoy the Legacys, because they can bring enjoyment across genres and they are great for movies. I also like a lot of the bands you mentioned, as well as Toto, Ambrosia, Kansas, Eagles, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Sade, Diana Krall, etc.

But you might like the MA just as well or better, and you just have to listen to both with some of your own music and decide which you like best. If I were buying speakers now, I probably would not go with Legacy again, just because I would want to try something from a big high end manufacturer, probably MA, Dynaudio, Revel, Focal, Sonus Faber, etc.

 

[monkish54]

The surrounds are made specifically to be placed on wall.

Good!

The towers will have around 2 feet to the side wall boundaries and about the same to the rear.

That might be enough for the Legacy...let me look...

Comb filtering will still probably be a problem!

What are narrow directivity towers? Does thus mean that the sound is more directional, versus mire dispersed?

It does indeed. Speakers image because of the reflections in room. Very early reflection (~10ms and below) are bad, while later reflections are very good! The Salon 2 and Philharmonic 2 (1 & 3 as well) have very wide directivity. The salon 2 probably throws a good pattern all the way out to 120-140 degrees!!! The Philharmonic probably 120 degrees as well! This will send a great deal of sound straight to the wall and MAXIMIZE early reflections.

The Salon 2 are really made for a giant room 30 x 30 would be AMAZING.

A more narrow speaker will throw a pattern that is, maybe, 90 degrees. This allows the early reflections to become late reflections.

What is BSC?

Baffle Step Compensation

Here is a good link:

BSC made simple (and why it may be important to you)

 

[monkish54]

The directivity appears to be pretty narrow (I wouldn't know 100% without measurements) although it hardly seems "controlled".