Help Improving SQ for two channel?

[Grant.M]

Hey guys! I’m trying to figure out what the weakest in my audio chain might be. My system is a 5.2 setup, but the biggest thing I want to improve on is two channel. I just can’t shake what I feel is a lack of clarity or foggy-ness while listening to music lately.

My Gear List:
2015 Yamaha RX-A2040 AVR (Used as Pre-Amp for two channel and HT)-
Emotiva ERC-3 CD Player
Emotiva Gen 1 XPA-1 x2 (Front channels)-
B&W 683 Series 1 (Fronts)-
Polk S35(Center)-
Polk S20 (Surrounds)-
Subwoofers are two DIY sealed Dayton Audio HF-8 12’s, each powered with 500 watts-
Wiring for my left and right are cables I made out of KnuConceptz 10AWG, I braided four strands together for an effective gauge of ~7AWG and terminated each strand with banana plugs. (More of a fun project, and to be able to reach across the back of the XPA-1’s better than anything else) Rest of the wire for the center and surrounds is 10AWG.-

I’m most concerned about two channel improvements as my listening preferences are 95/5 music/movies. But I’m open to any suggestions or tips for improvements, even outside of two channel listening!
Also to clarify, I know my surrounds and center aren’t timber matched with the fronts and won’t sound the best for HT. I bought those speakers as they were a great deal and I plan to eventually make those three a part of a bedroom set when I upgrade. Also I know bi-wiring doesn’t make a difference I just think it looks cool lol.

Thanks everyone!

Edit: Added CD player.

 

[lovinthehd]

Well hard to know over the internet to a great extent. Maybe you read too much about gear and lust for it? Sounds like if anything better speakers would be the best route as usual if not looking at your room/placement options. Listing your wiring is kinda weird, hopefully you don't "believe" too much in that aspect. I do like the concept of matched speakers, but have also had good experience with unmatched. The two ch thing is more about room setup.

 

[Grant.M]

Well hard to know over the internet to a great extent. Maybe you read too much about gear and lust for it? Sounds like if anything better speakers would be the best route as usual if not looking at your room/placement options. Listing your wiring is kinda weird, hopefully you don't "believe" too much in that aspect. I do like the concept of matched speakers, but have also had good experience with unmatched. The two ch thing is more about room setup.

That’s what I’m thinking about at this point as well, I’ve just wanted to make sure I’ve gotten the most out of B&W’s before I upgraded them. I’ll be honest, I do kind of lust after better gear, and seeing all the reviews and watching the Audioholics YouTube channel probably doesn’t help much in that regard lol! And I recently picked up the XPA-1’s and it made a huge difference as well as speaker placement. I think a large part is room reflections, my living room has vaulted ceilings and is open to the kitchen as well as a hallway. And I listed the cables for shits and giggles, I just think interconnects can be a fun part of the hobby (to me anyway), I’m also aware of the snake oil out there, I paid like $60 for the cables in total.

 

[Leemix]

How is you room, carpet/rugs?
Bare or lots of furniture?
Are you sure what you are listening to is of good sound quality?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Grant.M]

How is you room, carpet/rugs?
Bare or lots of furniture?
Are you sure what you are listening to is of good sound quality?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I have hard wood floors, I do have a rug covering the first reflection point but it’s not as padded as I’d like. I do plan on getting some carpet padding to place under the rug in hopes that’d help with reflections as well as soon thick curtains. I also have a couch and a love seat in the room as well as a large ottoman.
The listening room ~3200’ cubes and is open to a kitchen and a hallway. I forgot to add my CD player into my gear list, it’s an Emotiva ERC-3. I listen to my CD collection most of the time which mainly contains well produced albums, Steely Dan, Sade, Genesis, Dire Straits, Fleetwood Mac, etc. I also listen to 320kbps Spotify which doesn’t seem to be quite on par with the CD’s but is pretty good nevertheless, definitely no Mp3’s or iTunes quality listening going on here! So I don’t believe the source material is an issue.

Also thanks for the replies guys!

 

[ryanosaur]

If you're thinking you want to invest a couple G's into SQ, then I would look towards Salk, Ascend, and Selah as the best options for really getting the absolute best pure audio experience you can in your front three. Your Surrounds really only come into play, imo, if you are digging hard into multi-channel audio. If you want to deep dive into some of the best sounding speakers I know of, those would be the ones.
Cheers!

 

[TLS Guy]

Hey guys! I’m trying to figure out what the weakest in my audio chain might be. My system is a 5.2 setup, but the biggest thing I want to improve on is two channel. I just can’t shake what I feel is a lack of clarity or foggy-ness while listening to music lately.

My Gear List:
2015 Yamaha RX-A2040 AVR (Used as Pre-Amp for two channel and HT)-
Emotiva ERC-3 CD Player
Emotiva Gen 1 XPA-1 x2 (Front channels)-
B&W 683 Series 1 (Fronts)-
Polk S35(Center)-
Polk S20 (Surrounds)-
Subwoofers are two DIY sealed Dayton Audio HF-8 12’s, each powered with 500 watts-
Wiring for my left and right are cables I made out of KnuConceptz 10AWG, I braided four strands together for an effective gauge of ~7AWG and terminated each strand with banana plugs. (More of a fun project, and to be able to reach across the back of the XPA-1’s better than anything else) Rest of the wire for the center and surrounds is 10AWG.-

I’m most concerned about two channel improvements as my listening preferences are 95/5 music/movies. But I’m open to any suggestions or tips for improvements, even outside of two channel listening!
Also to clarify, I know my surrounds and center aren’t timber matched with the fronts and won’t sound the best for HT. I bought those speakers as they were a great deal and I plan to eventually make those three a part of a bedroom set when I upgrade. Also I know bi-wiring doesn’t make a difference I just think it looks cool lol.

Thanks everyone!

Edit: Added CD player.

I think your problem is speakers. Those B & W 683 speakers really are pretty dreadful. I have a brother who has a set of those. I don't like them. Bass tuning is woolly in the extreme. They measure very poorly. In addition the have significant impedance dips well below 4 ohms from 100 to 700 Hz were most of the power is.
So that will stress amps.

I honestly think that your description of the sound you describe is very much in line with my impression of those speakers.

Unfortunately to get decent sound from B & W speakers you have to move way up their food chain from the 600 series.

I have to be honest to say that you have a speaker set I could not live with.

 

[Pogre]

I agree with TLS. B&W make some good speakers in the "get a second mortgage" range, but I was not impressed with their 600 series. The way you describe the sound is pretty much in line with how I felt when I listened to them.

 

[Grant.M]

If you're thinking you want to invest a couple G's into SQ, then I would look towards Salk, Ascend, and Selah as the best options for really getting the absolute best pure audio experience you can in your front three. Your Surrounds really only come into play, imo, if you are digging hard into multi-channel audio. If you want to deep dive into some of the best sounding speakers I know of, those would be the ones.
Cheers!

Thank you Ryan! I’ve heard of Salk however the other names you mentioned I’m not too familiar with, I’ll definitely take a look into those.

I think your problem is speakers. Those B & W 683 speakers really are pretty dreadful. I have a brother who has a set of those. I don't like them. Bass tuning is woolly in the extreme. They measure very poorly. In addition the have significant impedance dips well below 4 ohms from 100 to 700 Hz were most of the power is.
So that will stress amps.

I honestly think that your description of the sound you describe is very much in line with my impression of those speakers.

Unfortunately to get decent sound from B & W speakers you have to move way up their food chain from the 600 series.

I have to be honest to say that you have a speaker set I could not live with.

Thanks for the reply and the honesty man. I’ve been thinking about making a push into upgrading my front two speakers for a little while now, and this is definitely giving me that final push! And can’t agree with you more with bass. I had to stuff the ports and cross them over at 80hz and just let the subs handle the bass because it was just too sloppy, especially at higher volumes. The huge drop in impedance is actually why I went with the gen 1 XPA-1’s , that and I was able to get the pair for $900 with a little haggling.

I agree with TLS. B&W make some good speakers in the "get a second mortgage" range, but I was not impressed with their 600 series. The way you describe the sound is pretty much in line with how I felt when I listened to them.

Thanks for the reply Pogre. Yeah the 683’s were a huge step up from my previous speakers at the time (Polk Tsx 330t), but now that I’ve had them for almost four years I’m ready to get something a little better. And for sure, B&W has some crazy expensive speakers! I feel like there is a lot better value out there for what they charge for their “good sounding speakers”.

 

[Auditor55]

Hey guys! I’m trying to figure out what the weakest in my audio chain might be. My system is a 5.2 setup, but the biggest thing I want to improve on is two channel. I just can’t shake what I feel is a lack of clarity or foggy-ness while listening to music lately.

My Gear List:
2015 Yamaha RX-A2040 AVR (Used as Pre-Amp for two channel and HT)-
Emotiva ERC-3 CD Player
Emotiva Gen 1 XPA-1 x2 (Front channels)-
B&W 683 Series 1 (Fronts)-
Polk S35(Center)-
Polk S20 (Surrounds)-
Subwoofers are two DIY sealed Dayton Audio HF-8 12’s, each powered with 500 watts-
Wiring for my left and right are cables I made out of KnuConceptz 10AWG, I braided four strands together for an effective gauge of ~7AWG and terminated each strand with banana plugs. (More of a fun project, and to be able to reach across the back of the XPA-1’s better than anything else) Rest of the wire for the center and surrounds is 10AWG.-

I’m most concerned about two channel improvements as my listening preferences are 95/5 music/movies. But I’m open to any suggestions or tips for improvements, even outside of two channel listening!
Also to clarify, I know my surrounds and center aren’t timber matched with the fronts and won’t sound the best for HT. I bought those speakers as they were a great deal and I plan to eventually make those three a part of a bedroom set when I upgrade. Also I know bi-wiring doesn’t make a difference I just think it looks cool lol.

Thanks everyone!

Edit: Added CD player.

What kind of music you listen to?

 

[Grant.M]

What kind of music you listen to?

Almost everything really. But I usually only listen to classic rock and other older well mastered/produced music on my audio setup. I also listen to Jazz a lot.

 

[PENG]

Almost everything really. But I usually only listen to classic rock and other older well mastered/produced music on my audio setup. I also listen to Jazz a lot.

Given that you already have 2 channels of power amps that can drive speakers with major impedance dips and low to average sensitivity such as B&W's, your weak links are obviously the following, in order of significance, but in my opinion only:

1. Quality of the recordings you played - Keep in mind if you listen to rock and pop bands, the musical instruments such as electric guitars, bass, keyboards already involved electronics that may or may not be as good as your media players, preamp and amps, and then through more electronics such as mics, mixes, equalizers, preamps etc., just to name a few. Classical music recordings would be better for comparing electronics imo, and some jazz types are good but not totally immune to the electronics contribution upstream.

2. The RX-A2040 - It is a very decent AVR, but it's internal bottleneck is likely the volume control chip that is based on a LSI (large scale integrated chip) that has to do a lot of things all in one chip. I have posted a linked to an article on this a few times on this forum. This is just based on specs, I don't think the effects are audible, except to golden ears, or some genuinely sensitive ears/brains.

I don't even believe there is any audible difference between with and without the Emo amps (to most people I would think) at low to moderate volume in a small to medium room sitting within say 10-13 ft. Obvious it did to you, so that's great, one problem solved.

Aside from the electronics, as others have pointed out, your speakers and room acoustic conditions probably have the most influence on sound quality you perceived in your own room. Take a look of the following FR graphs for your 683 and the presumably improved 683 S2. If you read the full reviews, not that their impedance characteristics are not good (not shown) either, but your big monoblocks have you covered so no worry there.

I think the 683 could sound very good to some people, but if you are the type who prefers neutrality and accuracy, some of those speakers Ryan recommended may sound much better to you. Just don't under estimate the importance of the quality of the recordings. Garbage in garbage out does apply...

B&W 683 - https://www.soundandvision.com/content/bw-683-surround-speaker-system-measurements
The reviewer noted:

The vertical responses shown in Fig. 2 strongly suggest that you avoid listening positions significantly below tweeter height.

Fig. 1: B&W 683, pseudo-anechoic response, off-center in the horizontal plane, at 45° (red) and 60° (blue).
Read more at https://www.soundandvision.com/content/bw-683-surround-speaker-system-measurements#k0RdKiD1fUD7EbL2.99

Fig. 2 : B&W 683, pseudo-anechoic response at 15° above (red) and 15° below (blue) the tweeter axis.
Read more at https://www.soundandvision.com/content/bw-683-surround-speaker-system-measurements#k0RdKiD1fUD7EbL2.99

B&W 683 S2 - https://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-wilkins-683-s2-loudspeaker-measurements
The reviewer

 

[Grant.M]

Given that you already have 2 channels of power amps that can drive speakers with major impedance dips and low to average sensitivity such as B&W's, your weak links are obviously the following, in order of significance, but in my opinion only:

1. Quality of the recordings you played - Keep in mind if you listen to rock and pop bands, the musical instruments such as electric guitars, bass, keyboards already involved electronics that may or may not be as good as your media players, preamp and amps, and then through more electronics such as mics, mixes, equalizers, preamps etc., just to name a few. Classical music recordings would be better for comparing electronics imo, and some jazz types are good but not totally immune to the electronics contribution upstream.

2. The RX-A2040 - It is a very decent AVR, but it's internal bottleneck is likely the volume control chip that is based on a LSI (large scale integrated chip) that has to do a lot of things all in one chip. I have posted a linked to an article on this a few times on this forum. This is just based on specs, I don't think the effects are audible, except to golden ears, or some genuinely sensitive ears/brains.

I don't even believe there is any audible difference between with and without the Emo amps (to most people I would think) at low to moderate volume in a small to medium room sitting within say 10-13 ft. Obvious it did to you, so that's great, one problem solved.

Aside from the electronics, as others have pointed out, your speakers and room acoustic conditions probably have the most influence on sound quality you perceived in your own room. Take a look of the following FR graphs for your 683 and the presumably improved 683 S2. If you read the full reviews, not that their impedance characteristics are not good (not shown) either, but your big monoblocks have you covered so no worry there.

I think the 683 could sound very good to some people, but if you are the type who prefers neutrality and accuracy, some of those speakers Ryan recommended may sound much better to you. Just don't under estimate the importance of the quality of the recordings. Garbage in garbage out does apply...

B&W 683 - https://www.soundandvision.com/content/bw-683-surround-speaker-system-measurements
The reviewer noted:

The vertical responses shown in Fig. 2 strongly suggest that you avoid listening positions significantly below tweeter height.

Fig. 1: B&W 683, pseudo-anechoic response, off-center in the horizontal plane, at 45° (red) and 60° (blue).
Read more at https://www.soundandvision.com/content/bw-683-surround-speaker-system-measurements#k0RdKiD1fUD7EbL2.99
View attachment 30521

Fig. 2 : B&W 683, pseudo-anechoic response at 15° above (red) and 15° below (blue) the tweeter axis.
Read more at https://www.soundandvision.com/content/bw-683-surround-speaker-system-measurements#k0RdKiD1fUD7EbL2.99
View attachment 30523

B&W 683 S2 - https://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-wilkins-683-s2-loudspeaker-measurements
The reviewer
View attachment 30522

Thank you for taking the time to write that reply PENG! You brought up some interesting points regarding recordings that I never thought of before. I’ll order a good classical album and give that a shot and see if I still feel the way about the performance of the speakers. And I will admit that I didn’t hear a crazy difference at low volumes with the amps, but where they really shined for me is the higher listening volume and dynamics, it may not be the best for my ears but I like it loud, I listen at near concert levels (90+Db with 100+Db peaks) half the time. I saved those frequency response graphs you provided so I have reference for comparison in case I have to order online direct for my upgrades. I do know frequency graphs don’t tell the whole story but they do give an idea of the sound characteristics.

If you guys don’t mind what would you recommend as an upgrade for my Yamaha, would separates be the way to go at this point and just add a multi channel amp for HT later?

Also a huge question for you PENG, do think there will be that noticeable of a difference between the XPA-1’s and say the Parasound Halo 21, (I was planning on getting that amp within the next year)?

Thanks for everything again guys!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I might have missed this, but what is your sound mode? Straight? Direct?

Bass sounds good, but midrange and treble don't sound very clear?

 

[PENG]

Thank you for taking the time to write that reply PENG! You brought up some interesting points regarding recordings that I never thought of before. I’ll order a good classical album and give that a shot and see if I still feel the way about the performance of the speakers. And I will admit that I didn’t hear a crazy difference at low volumes with the amps, but where they really shined for me is the higher listening volume and dynamics, it may not be the best for my ears but I like it loud, I listen at near concert levels (90+Db with 100+Db peaks) half the time. I saved those frequency response graphs you provided so I have reference for comparison in case I have to order online direct for my upgrades. I do know frequency graphs don’t tell the whole story but they do give an idea of the sound characteristics.

If you guys don’t mind what would you recommend as an upgrade for my Yamaha, would separates be the way to go at this point and just add a multi channel amp for HT later?

Also a huge question for you PENG, do think there will be that noticeable of a difference between the XPA-1’s and say the Parasound Halo 21, (I was planning on getting that amp within the next year)?

Thanks for everything again guys!

I started a thread to solicit input on high recording quality media contents a few years ago.

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/high-quality-sound-albums.78328/page-14

See post#280 for the latest list, you can pick from that for a few classical ones that you may like. Note that expensive ones are not always the best and the cheap ones could be of very high quality. For example, I have a CD that cost less than $10 iirc, but for people who want to hear "air", it is one the best that I have heard. So much so that we I could hear "air" in my car stereo, I questioned myself if the quality of the recording is more important than even speakers.

For prepro upgrade, the Yamaha CX-A5100 and Marantz AV7704 are easy to recommend, or the AV7705 if you want the latest. Imo, your AVR is good enough to hold you over while waiting for the upcoming HDMI 2.1 and 8K capable AVR/AVPs if that's what you are interested in.

Regarding the XPA-1 vs A21, I don't have experience with the XPA, but on paper I am sure I won't be able to tell a difference unless the A21 is pushed too close to it's power output limit.

By the way, to take full advantage of the 500 W rated XPA-1 gen 1, you need a prepro/AVR capable of at least 2.3 V at low distortions. Based on available past lab measurements, the CX-A5100 and Marantz prepros should be fine, but for AVRs, D&M's are probably a better bet than Yamaha's.

 

[Grant.M]

P

I might have missed this, but what is your sound mode? Straight? Direct?

Bass sounds good, but midrange and treble don't sound very clear?

You didn’t miss anything, I didn’t include the sound mode (I should’ve). Treble isn’t too bad, but the midrange just deliver the vocals as accurately as I’d like. Bass is better now since I have my subs taking care of the low end. When I’m having more serious listening sessions, I listen in Pure Diret mode using y splitters from the front pre amp outs to include the subs in the mix as well to help with low frequencies. In a previous post I mentioned I have the 693’s ports stuffed, so they are running sealed to keep the bass punchier while the subs take care of the low end.

 

[Pogre]

Thanks for the reply Pogre. Yeah the 683’s were a huge step up from my previous speakers at the time (Polk Tsx 330t), but now that I’ve had them for almost four years I’m ready to get something a little better. And for sure, B&W has some crazy expensive speakers! I feel like there is a lot better value out there for what they charge for their “good sounding speakers”.

Sure, and yes, I agree. One does not have to get a second mortgage to have good sounding speakers. I didn't hear the nicest things about my last set of speakers when I started posting here, but the bottom line is that they were correct. I took advice that was given and I'm super happy with the results.

 

[Grant.M]

I started a thread to solicit input on high recording quality media contents a few years ago.

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/high-quality-sound-albums.78328/page-14

See post#280 for the latest list, you can pick from that for a few classical ones that you may like. Note that expensive ones are not always the best and the cheap ones could be of very high quality. For example, I have a CD that cost less than $10 iirc, but for people who want to hear "air", it is one the best that I have heard. So much so that we I could hear "air" in my car stereo, I questioned myself if the quality of the recording is more important than even speakers.

For prepro upgrade, the Yamaha CX-A5100 and Marantz AV7704 are easy to recommend, or the AV7705 if you want the latest. Imo, your AVR is good enough to hold you over while waiting for the upcoming HDMI 2.1 and 8K capable AVR/AVPs if that's what you are interested in.

Regarding the XPA-1 vs A21, I don't have experience with the XPA, but on paper I am sure I won't be able to tell a difference unless the A21 is pushed too close to it's power output limit.

By the way, to take full advantage of the 500 W rated XPA-1 gen 1, you need a prepro/AVR capable of at least 2.3 V at low distortions. Based on available past lab measurements, the CX-A5100 and Marantz prepros should be fine, but for AVRs, D&M's are probably a better bet than Yamaha's.

Awesome, I’ll take a look at that list of recordings and check out the the recommendations for the pre-pros and AVR’s. I appreciate all the advice!
And by air you mean the ambience of the room? I’ve yet to hear a good classical recording so I’ll be looking forward to that, I’ll let you know which one I went with.

 

[Grant.M]

Sure, and yes, I agree. One does not have to get a second mortgage to have good sounding speakers. I didn't hear the nicest things about my last set of speakers when I started posting here, but the bottom line is that they were correct. I took advice that was given and I'm super happy with the results.

Hahah, I’m all good with the advice I’ve been given, and I don’t take any of it personally. I have plenty of room to grow and so does my audio equipment line up! I’m sure I’ll be more than happy with the decisions I make based off the advice here. I joined in hopes of people far more knowledgeable than myself and with more experience to “show me the way” and provide some solid advice, and I’ve gotten just that!

 

[ryanosaur]

In light of all of this, I don't want to try to sell you on crazy expensive speakers, but the step towards great sound quality does not have to be synonymous with $$$$$. If you get a chance to seek out and hear some good quality speakers with a flat and accurate FR, you can then begin to compare better, all speakers. The three ID Brands I listed earlier are known quantities. they perform well. The only one I haven't heard is Ascend, yet they are accepted to be in the same class of speaker from a performance perspective.
My speakers are very flat and accurate... I listen to music mostly, and some HT. I do not feel let down in any way, in any area. They do what they are meant to do: reproduce sound faithfully to the intended production. That's all I can ask for. And... they sound great doing it!
It's well worth your time to seek out a speaker that performs like these, just so you can hear it. If you are really interested, Jim, Dave, and Rick likely will refer you to a local customer, if one exists, that would welcome you into their home to audition their speakers! This is how I heard mine. A hhumbling experience to be certain, sitting in some guys home listening to his rig! More than anything, that is how good speakers like this can be!!!... that people are willing to let strangers come to their homes to hear them.