HELP: How to improve dialog clarity without center channel?

[shkumar4963]

How to improve dialog clarity?

I have a 4.1 set up with no center channel. In some movies, the dialogs are not loud enough compared to the background sound and music.

So I am thinking of doing the following to enhance dialogs. Let me know if you feel it will work. Has anyone tried it?

Since most vocals are largely between 150 to 600 hz, I was planning to adding a 3 to 6 dB boost in Audyssey app in this frequency range.

My Audyssey app is currently not working. It keeps losing the connection with my Denon 3500. But if it works and others think that this might work, I will try it.

Has anyone tried this or anything else to enhance dialogs in a 4.1 set up?

 

[Trell]

The higher end Denon receivers does something similar in their higher end receivers (called, "Dialog Enhancer") by adjusting frequency relevant for vocals/dialogue.

As for your app loosing contact with the receiver, try use a hardwire connection to LAN instead of wireless for your receiver, in case you've not already done so.

 

[shkumar4963]

The higher end Denon receivers does something similar in their higher end receivers (called, "Dialog Enhancer") by adjusting frequency relevant for vocals/dialogue.

As for your app loosing contact with the receiver, try use a hardwire connection to LAN instead of wireless for your receiver, in case you've not already done so.

Thanks.

What are the frequencies these higher end Denon use to enhance dialogs? I will try the same frequencies?

Yes, my receiver is hard wired connected to the router. But the app is in my phone which is of course wifi connected.

 

[Trell]

Thanks.

What are the frequencies these higher end Denon use to enhance dialogs? I will try the same frequencies?

Yes, my receiver is hard wired connected to the router. But the app is in my phone which is of course wifi connected.

I do not know the frequencies used by the Dialog Enhancer, though I seem to have seen that in a post sometime. Also, I do not know if the level adjust is dynamic with respect to volume level.

If no one here can answer you, you could try posting on the Official 2018 Denon (for X6500H) or the Official Denon AVR-X8500H sub-forums in the receiver forum on avsforum to see if someone there knows.

 

[Verdinut]

Thanks.

What are the frequencies these higher end Denon use to enhance dialogs? I will try the same frequencies?

Yes, my receiver is hard wired connected to the router. But the app is in my phone which is of course wifi connected.

Human spoken voice frequencies will go well over 1,000 Hz up to 3 kHz. I would try boosting those frequencies which contain the consonants.

Let us know whether or not you find some improvement with that trial.

 

[TLS Guy]

The critical speech discrimination band is 400 Hz to 4 KHz.

 

[baronvonellis]

Vocal presence is in 1-3khz. 150 to 600 hz is pretty deep in the mud, that would just make it boomy and muddy sounding. Usually when mixing vocals for music a boost around 1khz helps alot for vocal clarity.

 

[TLS Guy]

Vocal presence is in 1-3khz. 150 to 600 hz is pretty deep in the mud, that would just make it boomy and muddy sounding. Usually when mixing vocals for music a boost around 1khz helps alot for vocal clarity.

I can tell you this from a medical perspective.
Patients who mention a mild hearing deficit have turnover frequencies in their audiograms between 3 and 4 KHz.

Between 1500 Hz and 3 KHz hearing loss complaints become rapidly progressive and request hearing aids.

At turnover frequencies below 1500 patients are actually profoundly deaf and below the 1.2 to 1.5 Khz range then hearing aids become progressively less helpful.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

If you do get the app to work again make sure to turn off the MRC, mid range compensation. It puts about a 3db dip at 2k iirc.
Why no center?

 

[Swerd]

Why no center?

That's my question for shkumar4963 as well. Why no center? A decent center channel speaker is far more important for movie playback than rear channel speakers.

If you you have trouble with unclear sounding dialog without a center speaker, and if you don't have the space for one, it's time to make some space.

I haven't listened to a system with a 3-6 dB boost in the 150-600 Hz range, but I strongly suspect it will alter the sound of your front speakers for all sound, dialog or music, without solving your problem.

 

[Trell]

That's my question for the OP as well. Why no center? A decent center channel speaker is far more important than rear channel speakers.

If you you have trouble with hearing dialog without a center speaker, and if you don't have the space for one, it's time to make some space.

I haven't listened to a system with a 3-6 dB boost in the 150-600 Hz range, but I strongly suspect it will color the sound of your front speakers for all sound, dialog or music, without solving your problem.

Mostly important if you don't sit in the sweet spot.

 

[baronvonellis]

That's my question for shkumar4963 as well. Why no center? A decent center channel speaker is far more important for movie playback than rear channel speakers.

If you you have trouble with unclear sounding dialog without a center speaker, and if you don't have the space for one, it's time to make some space.

I haven't listened to a system with a 3-6 dB boost in the 150-600 Hz range, but I strongly suspect it will alter the sound of your front speakers for all sound, dialog or music, without solving your problem.

I will say I've listened to movies in 4.0 for years, and I can hear the dialog great in 99% of movies and shows with a phantom center. It's very rare that a movie actually has poorly recorded or low dialog. I think when people have trouble hearing the dialog, they are either listening way off axis, have issues with room acoustic, or their hearing is not so good. But I'm getting a center channel anyway soon, just so I can finally get the full audio experience for movies and surround audio.

 

[Swerd]

I will say I've listened to movies in 4.0 for years, and I can hear the dialog great in 99% of movies and shows with a phantom center. It's very rare that a movie actually has poorly recorded or low dialog. I think when people have trouble hearing the dialog, they are either listening way off axis, have issues with room acoustic, or their hearing is not so good. But I'm getting a center channel anyway soon, just so I can finally get the full audio experience for movies and surround audio.

Dialog may or may not be heard well without a center speaker. This depends on how far apart the front speakers are from each other and how wide their dispersion is. The width of this dialog sweet spot depends on those conditions, and can be narrow. Speakers may be relocated or toed inwards, but in my experience, the best way to hear dialog is to use a center channel speaker. If a movie has been made where the dialog is hard to hear, raise the volume of the center channel.

 

[shkumar4963]

If you do get the app to work again make sure to turn off the MRC, mid range compensation. It puts about a 3db dip at 2k iirc.
Why no center?

I have no place for a center. The set up is in the living room with one wall having the roll up projector screen and a sofa below it.

Left and right speakers are about 8 ft apart and I am sitting 8 ft from the speaker.

I intend to have a setting for difficult to hear movies (with dialog enhancer adjustment) and one for music and and all other movies.

Speakers are Kef LS50s.

Just trying to decide what frequencies to boost.

 

[shkumar4963]

Human spoken voice frequencies will go well over 1,000 Hz up to 3 kHz. I would try boosting those frequencies which contain the consonants.

Let us know whether or not you find some improvement with that trial.

Thanks. Here is an article on what to do to enhance or solve various problems through EQ.

It says 120 to 600 hz : to Boost for strong vocal presence. Causes problems with vocal resonance and fatiguing.

Later it says for 4Khz:. Boost vocal here for presence

Does it make sense based on your experience?


https://www.cheatography.com/fredv/cheat-sheets/eq-tips/

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks. Here is an article on what to do to enhance or solve various problems through EQ.

It says 120 to 600 hz : to Boost for strong vocal presence. Causes problems with vocal resonance and fatiguing.

Later it says for 4Khz:. Boost vocal here for presence

Does it make sense based on your experience?


https://www.cheatography.com/fredv/cheat-sheets/eq-tips/

Now I know your speakers, I'm going to recommend you have an audiogram done. You may have a hearing problem. I have one rig that has no center and the one I'm using now I listen to two channel unless there is a center channel. I do not have trouble with speech and nor does my wife.

I have auditioned those speakers and would not regard them as retiring.

They also measure very well. They so have a slight sag in the horizontal dispersion response at the upper end of the speech discrimination band.

I would recommend the speakers not be toed in or out and listened to on axis.

Lastly if you are using a sub, make sure it is not set too high. In my experience people have their subs at far too high a level. There is nothing like a sub too loud for ruining speech clarity. That is especially true if it is a high Q sub which is a great many of them. My personal experience of how people us subs is that they easily become real quality spoilers.

 

[KEW]

Check this chart!

http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/images/store/irn/freq_chart_poster_samp_732.jpg

Look under the green header on the right side - It looks like vocal recognition is attributed to the 4-6kHz range.

If you take this link, you will get the same chart in interactive form, where you can hoover over different items to get different information!
http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm

 

[TLS Guy]

Check this chart!

http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/images/store/irn/freq_chart_poster_samp_732.jpg

Look under the green header on the right side - It looks like vocal recognition is attributed to the 4-6kHz range.

If you take this link, you will get the same chart in interactive form, where you can hoover over different items to get different information!
http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm

I can tell you that is not right.

You don't get people turning up complaining of hearing loss until they loose hearing above the 3 to 3.5 K range.

 

[shkumar4963]

Here is what I got from the Denon forum if you are curious.

The dialog enhancer has three positions: low, medium, and high with the following frequency enhancement curves.

Does it make sense?

 

[shkumar4963]

Thank you everyone. I still have the same problem. And have not been able to solve it with dialog enhancer.

Not sure if I use the MultEq correctly, but enhancing the dialogs did not improve the situation.

I feel the problem maybe reflections from side and back walls from the front speakers (ls50).


The other problem could be that subwoofer adds to dialog intelligibility. The dialogs are clearer when I use one TV speaker.

Any other idea folks? Thanks in advance.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk