Help getting better sound

Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
Reaper - I'm not sure how your Yamaha is set up, but on mine in order to switch the output between 6 and 8 ohms, you have to turn the power off, then hold down the 'tone control' button while powering up the unit. This will bring you into the advanced setup menu, which on mine really is nothing more than the aforementioned impedance setting and an 'All Parameters reset to factory settings' option.

As I found with my system - I turned in the Yamaha 6 ohm speakers and opted for some JBL's myself, rated for 8 ohms. With the receiver still set for 6 ohms, there was no threat of damage whatsoever, but it compromised a bit of the output power by having it configured this way. Bumping the receiver output setting back up to 8 ohms breathed a little more life into my system.

Again, I'm not sure how yours is set up, but you can try this if you have a similar button (or it should be in your owner's manual, how to access this function).
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Sounds like you have a great excuse to buy a new receiver and speaker system!
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Ok, good, so running the receiver at 6 ohms to speakers that are rated 8 ohms won't damage anything? That's good, thanks for the help.
With the info Peng gave you, not in the manual, why do you think it is set to 6 Ohms? If you know this then it must be changeable to 8 ohms.
Unless, the power rating is at 6 ohms, a different issue altogether.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Everything is fine

I don't know your receiver, but I have not encountered a direct coupled transistor amp that you could vary the impedance of. I'm stretched to think how you could do it. You would have to increase the power supply rail voltage for the higher impedance and limit the current for the lower impedance to stop the power transistors getting out of their comfort zone.
Any way as I said, all this 6 ohm rating means is that this device is current limited when supplying nominal loads below 6 ohms. In general for transistor amps, the lower the impedance they can drive and still maintain power output the better. As I have stated before, loudspeakers are reactive loads. The impedance rating of any speaker is "nominal". The impedance curves are more often than not quite a ride. Many speakers drop their impedance quite drastically at certain frequencies, and it is quite high at others. That is why, high current capability in an amp is in general a good think. Usually amps with this kind of reserve command a significantly higher price.

I'm sure your Yamaha will perform optimally with your new JBL speakers.
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
Ohm's Law?

I don't know your receiver, but I have not encountered a direct coupled transistor amp that you could vary the impedance of. I'm stretched to think how you could do it. You would have to increase the power supply rail voltage for the higher impedance and limit the current for the lower impedance to stop the power transistors getting out of their comfort zone.
I'm thinking maybe this is the case? I don't know enough about receiver design, but I can speculate that the reason there is a different impedance setting on the Yamaha is to limit current conditions under a pre-determined 'nominal' load as you put it, across the gamut of possible impedances that the speaker may actually represent, under normal listening conditions, that will still fall short of the danger zone. It was my thinking with mine that the reason for the 6 ohm setting was to limit the amount of current the receiver would provide based on the lower impedance specifications of the 6 ohm speakers, thereby providing an added "buffer" zone of safety. Would varying the voltage to acheive this purpose?

At 8 ohm load with 8 ohm setting: E=IR, or R=E/I with lower impedance, therefore higher current for a given voltage. What would be the only way to reduce the current for a given impedance? Lower the voltage?

If the impedance goes up, therefore for the given voltage, current drawn must naturally go down in magnitude. Therefore, can not the receiver still provide more power because it can provide a higher voltage?

I'm honestly asking because I would like to know - short of calling up the Yamaha engineers and asking them in person of course. :)

Yamaha provides this variable 6 ohm/8 ohm setting on many of their receivers because of proprietary reasons - most of their own brand of speakers are rated for 6 ohms. I'm glad they at least give you the option to modify this setting to allow for 8 ohm speakers, rather than have to compromise on output power by pushing 8 ohm loads with a receiver limited for 6 ohm loads.
 
R

reaper360

Audiophyte
Wow, thanks for all the help guys, you've all been very helpful. If I can't get my receiver to run 8 ohms, maybe I'll buy another receiver that can run 8 ohms. Again, thanks everyone.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I'll join you on the scenic route

Dear Halon 451,
I can not be certain of what is behind being able to change the impedance of that Yamaha unit from 8 to 6 ohms.
The problem is we don't know the circuit topography. May be there is something unusual about it? However I find it hard to fathom that it is worth the trouble given the impedance curves of most speakers. I have been on the Yamaha site, but as is usual these days, there is no information proffered that gives a clue as to how the unit actually works, and the engineering details
This seems a budget unit, so it would not be unreasonable to assume that the power amps use planar transistors, or an integrated circuit version of same. In a unit like this you could safely assume class B biasing.
If that is so, increasing the supply voltage when driving a nominal 8 ohm load would allow for a marginally increased power output into the 8 ohm load. The only reason for changing it for a six ohm load would be to limit output current to protect the output devices. The problem with that idea is that, if the output stages are that close to the destruct point, then you could have a situation were a customer would set it to 8 ohm and then connect speakers of lower impedance. This I would have thought would be inclined to result in a service nightmare.
These days there is usually a circuit to limit the rail voltage if the output current becomes excessive. This of course drives the amp to clipping, and hard, but protects the output devices. I did note that this unit has outputs for A & B speakers. You can select A or B but not both. So may be the output devices are near the knuckle. If that is so, I would think it would be wise for an owner to leave it on the six ohm setting unless he could be certain that the speakers impedance does not drop below six ohms at any frequency. Many if not the majority of speakers that are nominally 8 ohm will.

I have to make a confession that I have never owned a Far Eastern receiver of any stripe. Obviously I'm somewhat familiar with the breed. I do know that as a group they tend to not perform optimally into low impedance loads.

This is a little unfortunate, especially as there are now many speakers on the market that are 2 1/2 way designs. By that I mean speakers with two bass mids, one above the other. The top unit reproduces mid and bass, but the lower unit is shelved at a much lower frequency, usually first order, to splice to the step response and diffraction loss of the upper driver. The lower unit also reinforces the bass. This on the whole is a good design philosophy and I have used it more than once or twice myself. In fact I believe all narrow fronted speakers should have step and diffraction compensation provided in some fashion. The point of this is that pretty much all 2 1/2 ways will drop to around 4 ohm impedance at some point, even if they are nominally 8 ohm. If the amp is current limited it results in a little less than optimal results.

Just a quick word to Reaper 360, who got us into more than enough trouble by posing the question. If you do purchase another receiver, you do not want to purchase one that has its greatest power output into 8 ohms. You want to find one that will drive four ohm loads, or less, comfortably. Then you know that it has ample power and current reserve. If your speakers are nominally 8 ohm, as long as your receiver will deliver adequate power into an 8 ohm load everything is fine. If it provides twice the power output into a four ohm load well and good. That is evidence of well designed and robust power supply and output stages.
 
davidtwotrees

davidtwotrees

Audioholic General
The point of this is that pretty much all 2 1/2 ways will drop to around 4 ohm impedance at some point, even if they are nominally 8 ohm. If the amp is current limited it results in a little less than optimal results.
I am on my second pair of speaks with the design you site, [Mordaunt Short 502s and Canton Karat 800DCs], and they both listed the impedance of the speaker in precisley the same way: 8........4ohms
Does this designation describe the impedance drop that narrow 2 1/2 way speakers experience in your description? Is this a design flaw or drawback?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
No design flaw

It is not a design floor, although some receiver manufacturers might say that it is.

The point is that at the frequencies where the two divers are working together, they are in parallel electrical connection, so the impedance is bound to be halved. If the amp will deliver the goods, the bass is also reinforced as well, since if it is a well designed amp, then it will increase output and double its output at those frequencies.

Peter Walker, founder of Quad, and one of the greatest of the audio pioneers, said it best. Amplifiers should be "unconditionally stable into all loads." In other words, he recognized that loudspeakers are not resistors and designed for the real world. I'm in total agreement. For the last 40 years the label on my amps has said Quad. There are lots of other good amps around, but I'm just used to my around Quad amps and pre amps, and I'm such totally in sympatico with Peter's way of doing things. And yes, yes, I know he wrote his own rules, but so what!
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
TLS Guy - You'll have to bear with me as my brain catches up. :) I definitely concede to your expertise on this matter - I'm just a guy who understands electronic and electrical theory quite well; speaker design is still a tad bit beyond my threshold, but I do comprehend what you have described to a point.

Let us not forget that poor Reaper360 had originally posed a very simple question that really had no simple answer. :) Hopefully, Reaper, this hasn't overwhelmed you. I'm in the same boat - and one simple answer to both of our problems is this: "You get what you pay for". It seems to be more true in the world of audio than in most cases - those budget receivers and HTIB systems do well on the ol' wallet, but I've been trying (rather unsuccessfully) to turn my $400 system into a $1000 system, and it may just be that we both are going to have to fork over the extra cash to get that sound that we crave - in a nutshell. Yamaha seems to be a very respectable brand of receiver to purchase, but like any brand (audio or otherwise) there are the high end flagship models, and there are the low-end budget models.

I was running an old Kenwood HTIB for a few years without much complaint - passive subwoofer, small cheap plastic satellite speakers, the works. It wasn't until the the old Kenwood receiver called it quits on me one day, that forced me to purchase my Yamaha... one thing lead to another, and here I am on the road to audio perfection now, or at least a close approximation thereof, within my own budget constraints. You can learn a great deal of information from these guys here on this forum, as I have already - it just depends on how far into it you want to go.

As for myself, I'm neck deep in tweaking and adjusting, experimenting with room acoustics, damping materials, you name it - and loving every minute of it, by the way!
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
There are lots of other good amps around, but I'm just used to my around Quad amps and pre amps, and I'm such totally in sympatico with Peter's way of doing things. And yes, yes, I know he wrote his own rules, but so what!
Hey, that's what drives innovation - in ANY industry! :D
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Leaning and having fun

Dear Halon451,
The point is you are having fun and I would bet, leaning a lot along the way. I started on the road a long time ago, in what is often called Hi-Fi's Golden Era"
Nothing would please me more than have the spirit of those times return. With the Internet and forums like this, it can probably be better. However we need to be focused on real problems that matter, nut "funny wire" for instance.
This turned into what I feel has been a good thread. I'm also concerned about Reaper360. I'm sure he had no idea his seemingly simple question would open up these avenues. I have done my very best to answer his questions as simply as I can. Reaper360 please feel free to ask any more questions you need for clarification. Remember there really are no stupid questions, just stupid answers. If you would rather, at any time please feel free to send me a private message.
Halon, you say " you pay for what you get". I wish that were true. Unfortunately as you go up the scale, there are plenty of snake pits, and the oil to go with it.
When I get back from visiting my family over the next few days, with your indulgence, I will add a post and as simply as I can relate what I see are the historical mile posts, social and economic conditions that got us where we are now. I would like to end with what I think would be useful system wide approaches and changes, that would improve the current situation and keep gear affordable. To wet the appetite, I will say that putting complex audio and visual control, switching, decoding, processing, seven high powered amplifiers and a power supply in one case, is neither sensible nor desirable. I will suggest a better way.
 
R

ryanzero

Audiophyte
I have the same Yamaha receiver HTR 5920. I was thinking, since I run an optical cable at the highest PCM bitrate my Playstation3 can output, thus limiting my system to stereo, maybe I should only have two good speakers.

Would this improve power to the Front L and R channels if I neglect all the others?
 

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