Help diagnose my new speakers

[jostenmeat]

However, just to be sure, let them know that you want the crossover
that is pre-assembled to the terminal plate.

Thanks, I did think about that, but I felt I would be a tad greedy there. Hmmm. In any case, I already fired the email off.

 

[zieglj01]

Thanks, I did think about that, but I felt I would be a tad greedy there. Hmmm. In any case, I already fired the email off.

Your honesty is to be respected. That is always the best way. I don't know if the wires
will come with the crossover - however, you can soder them on. A good DIY experience.

 

[highfigh]

The crossover may be OK, but that woofer is toast and not repairable. The crossover looks like it's partially dislodged from the plate and that's why I recommended testing it. If it's still good and you can, use hot glue to re-mount it.

You shouldn't cause any damage to the crossover with a soldering iron unless you camp out with the tip on the lead right next to where the wire goes into a cap, although they look like electrolytic and I would replace them with non-polar polyester/foil or metalized polyester of the same value.

 

[Swerd]

Hey jm

I finally got back online today. Friday and Saturday were too nice to stay indoors. We hiked in some nearby mountains and canoed on Mirror Lake. Today it is cloudier with some light rain and I read about your fixer upper speakers.

That woofer obviously needs replacing. Did you test the other drivers with a battery? I don't remember if I saw that mentioned. A positive result with the battery test (a noticable pop when you connect to driver to the battery terminals) would suggest the driver works OK. You can use almost any small battery like a 1.5 volt AA battery.

As far as the crossovers go, there is no test as simple as the battery test for the drivers. If you have a multi-meter, you can test for contininuity, if all the connections are intact the crossover should show little or no resistance to DC. If there is a broken connection the resistance might be infinite. But that won't tell you everything. Look closely for a broken wire or solder connection. If you can't find that they might be OK. I'm still concerned that the crossover board broke loose, and that the woofer's magnet did some damage somewhere.

 

[jostenmeat]

Thanks Swerd. The first thing I did was just connect the speaker to play back music. Only the tweeter was working (and the dealer said nothing* worked for him). I did not test the driver without magnet, haha. I did test the other driver with a 9V battery, and it's working fine.

After your post, I think it may be a good thing after all to have requested the xover. Then I don't have to worry. Perhaps a lack of due diligence on my part, but if I ever do conclusively find that the original xover indeed works perfectly, I can return it to dealer and/or PSB. Even if they probably won't care . . . Or I can just give the original back immediately too I suppose . . . I don't want to be second guessing the xover.

I'm glad you're having a great time. I googled for images, and it looks quite nice!! I shall be camping for the first time at a place I've always wanted to, at Big Sur, Pfeiffer State Park, the second half of this week.

 

[KEW]

Wood glue fills small gaps just fine and the wood will fail before the glue does if it's assembled correctly. Weldbond II is great for just about any wood that doesn't have a high wax content, like teak or koa.

I'm simply confused by your post.
I don't disagree with what you say about wood glue, but are you saying you would recommend wood glue over epoxy? If so, why?
Do you believe any standard wood glue would seal better than epoxy?
Do you believe epoxy would fail before the wood does?
I thought you were going to specify a wood glue which is especially good for gap filling (there are some, they usually have fillers mixed in), but then you recommended Weldbond - a universal adhesive, not of wood glue.

 

[jostenmeat]

Ok, I got the parts. I bet the odds are high that the connections will go to the proper drivers if I went by my "guess", but I want to remove as much guesswork as possible. That's where you guys come in.

The new xover doesn't have markings for tweeter, woofer1, or woofer 2, where the old one did. But for the latter two, I assume the same colors are used.

The first question is how do I know which negative wire goes to which mid driver? The spots where the wires are soldered are totally different than with original (where +/- are right next to each other, see below), and again no markings. There are two black/negatives (left upper corner of new xover in the forefront); shall I just go ahead like an idiot and couple each to the nearest positive?

I have no idea what to look for, but I checked out the tracing to see if it can give me any more clues, see below. ASSUMING that the color coding has not changed, and that the relative solder spots on the xover haven't changed, the green on upper/left should be for lower bass driver, and the red on the right is for upper mid driver. Well, this pic doesn't help me but that's because I know nothing at all.

Lastly, for the tweeter, the green went on right terminal, and yellow on the left. However, the new xover now uses blue instead of green, and I ASSUME that blue will go on the right (and I will also ASSUME that the right is always positive; there are no markings for polarity on tweeter).

Because of the changes in soldering points, and color coding changes, I looked to see if the cap values are the same, and they are. The new xover simply has many less markings, no mention of my speaker model for instance as it is with the old one.

Bonus pic just for kicks. New vs old driver!

 

[TLS Guy]

Ok, I got the parts. I bet the odds are high that the connections will go to the proper drivers if I went by my "guess", but I want to remove as much guesswork as possible. That's where you guys come in.

The new xover doesn't have markings for tweeter, woofer1, or woofer 2, where the old one did. But for the latter two, I assume the same colors are used.

The first question is how do I know which negative wire goes to which mid driver? The spots where the wires are soldered are totally different than with original (where +/- are right next to each other, see below), and again no markings. There are two black/negatives (left upper corner of new xover in the forefront); shall I just go ahead like an idiot and couple each to the nearest positive?

I have no idea what to look for, but I checked out the tracing to see if it can give me any more clues, see below. ASSUMING that the color coding has not changed, and that the relative solder spots on the xover haven't changed, the green on upper/left should be for lower bass driver, and the red on the right is for upper mid driver. Well, this pic doesn't help me but that's because I know nothing at all.

Lastly, for the tweeter, the green went on right terminal, and yellow on the left. However, the new xover now uses blue instead of green, and I ASSUME that blue will go on the right (and I will also ASSUME that the right is always positive; there are no markings for polarity on tweeter).

Because of the changes in soldering points, and color coding changes, I looked to see if the cap values are the same, and they are. The new xover simply has many less markings, no mention of my speaker model for instance as it is with the old one.

Bonus pic just for kicks. New vs old driver!

Those pictures don't help me either, but presumably if the circuit is the same, all wires go to the place they did before.

 

[zieglj01]

Follow the pattern of the good speaker - the circuit should be the same.

 

[jostenmeat]

Those pictures don't help me either, but presumably if the circuit is the same, all wires go to the place they did before.

Thanks for taking a gander doc. Well, I know less than nothing about circuits. It's just strange how the original had the respective +/- wires right next to each other, and the new one doesn't.

Hm, maybe a side by side pic can reveal something. I already missed an absent magnet, lol, so I'm just trying to reveal as much as I can. (Forgive the dark pic, with flash it's too much glare.)

Ok, I'm going to use the glared photo after all, cropped. You can see here that the respective +/- for both W1 and W2 are just right next to each other on the original/damaged xover.

If you refer to the first two photos from my previous post here, you will see that the negative wires are now no longer next to the respective + wires. The neg wires are now next to each other. The solder points for these two neg wires are at the very right bottom of the new xover (from orientation of photo). (The second neg wire is the solder point just above it.)

Ok, whereas the old W1 solder points are now the area where the two negatives are, the new W1 positive solder point is now right next to the 5-way terminal jack (positive).

Does this xover look different enough to anyone that I should get another to make this pair a "true" match? (Even if I am only going to use only one of the two for now.) Now, I gotta see what my first pair's (I now have two pairs) xovers look like, hmmm.

TLS, I'm sure it'll be just fine, but just in the outside case that I mistakenly run the neg wires to the wrong drivers, what on Earth will the speaker sound like? IOW, how will I diagnose that I did indeed screw up? Yes, I'm sure the "closest" respective neg wire will be the right one, but I am just curious.

Thanks much to all again, for the help.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks for taking a gander doc. Well, I know less than nothing about circuits. It's just strange how the original had the respective +/- wires right next to each other, and the new one doesn't.

Hm, maybe a side by side pic can reveal something. I already missed an absent magnet, lol, so I'm just trying to reveal as much as I can. (Forgive the dark pic, with flash it's too much glare.)

Ok, I'm going to use the glared photo after all, cropped. You can see here that the respective +/- for both W1 and W2 are just right next to each other on the original/damaged xover.

If you refer to the first two photos from my previous post here, you will see that the negative wires are now no longer next to the respective + wires. The neg wires are now next to each other. The solder points for these two neg wires are at the very right bottom of the new xover (from orientation of photo). (The second neg wire is the solder point just above it.)

Ok, whereas the old W1 solder points are now the area where the two negatives are, the new W1 positive solder point is now right next to the 5-way terminal jack (positive).

Does this xover look different enough to anyone that I should get another to make this pair a "true" match? (Even if I am only going to use only one of the two for now.) Now, I gotta see what my first pair's (I now have two pairs) xovers look like, hmmm.

TLS, I'm sure it'll be just fine, but just in the outside case that I mistakenly run the neg wires to the wrong drivers, what on Earth will the speaker sound like? IOW, how will I diagnose that I did indeed screw up? Yes, I'm sure the "closest" respective neg wire will be the right one, but I am just curious.

Thanks much to all again, for the help.

Unless there is phase reversal to one speaker, all the negatives should be connected, you can verify that with a meter.

If you reverse phase then the speaker units will cancel at crossover and with the other speaker. You can check phasing of the woofers with a battery.

The boards are totally different, this does not mean the circuit is different. You should be able to trace the circuit and draw it out for us.

The other way is to use your multi meter to see which holes connected to which component on the new and old boards. That will be the best way.

 

[jostenmeat]

Unless there is phase reversal to one speaker, all the negatives should be connected, you can verify that with a meter.

OK, I read this multiple times, seeing if I could give it a good effort at having things clear.

I'm sure you are understanding me already, but just in case . . . when I read "phase reversal", I read a switching of pos/neg. The question I was asking was more specifically having the wrong negative wire going to the neg terminal of the wrong driver (while the positive wires were going to the right place).

If you reverse phase then the speaker units will cancel at crossover and with the other speaker. You can check phasing of the woofers with a battery.

This is basically the 9V test, but instead of directly hooked to driver, do it at the binding posts, correct?

The boards are totally different, this does not mean the circuit is different. You should be able to trace the circuit and draw it out for us.

I will have to later google the construction of a circuit board. I swear one of the negative wires in question is not even on a tracer. Maybe this doesn't matter . . .

The other way is to use your multi meter to see which holes connected to which component on the new and old boards. That will be the best way.

I knew I should've picked up that multi-meter I was checking out when I picked up the leads and alligator clips at radio shack for this project. I will have to google the above method as well (or maybe there will be included instructions . . .)

Thanks.

 

[TLS Guy]

OK, I read this multiple times, seeing if I could give it a good effort at having things clear.

I'm sure you are understanding me already, but just in case . . . when I read "phase reversal", I read a switching of pos/neg. The question I was asking was more specifically having the wrong negative wire going to the neg terminal of the wrong driver (while the positive wires were going to the right place).

This is basically the 9V test, but instead of directly hooked to driver, do it at the binding posts, correct?

I will have to later google the construction of a circuit board. I swear one of the negative wires in question is not even on a tracer. Maybe this doesn't matter . . .

I knew I should've picked up that multi-meter I was checking out when I picked up the leads and alligator clips at radio shack for this project. I will have to google the above method as well (or maybe there will be included instructions . . .)

Thanks.

In most crossovers the negs are all connected together. You can't have a neg going nowhere though for any reason. Yes you do need a multimeter for this. You absolutely do.

 

[jostenmeat]

In most crossovers the negs are all connected together.

Ah, ok.

You can't have a neg going nowhere though for any reason. Yes you do need a multimeter for this. You absolutely do.

I need the meter to make sure that, um, the . . . ok when you say "holes", I guess that must be the proper terminology for what I was calling solder points?

Thanks for the advice. Multi meter here I come. I hope I don't just stare at the thing after I get it.

 

[zieglj01]

You should be able to work it out - If not, then let your dealer know.
You can also, Email PSB customer support.

 

[jostenmeat]

You should be able to work it out - If not, then let your dealer know.
You can also, Email PSB customer support.

I know. It's quicker here with people I trust, where I can post many photos, and keep a thread. I don't mind asking my dealer, but he's not very close to me, and if there is a single question I forget, or have another Q that arises, it would be a pain to keep buggin him and/or keep driving over there to show him. Cheers.

I've contacted PSB before via email, and my experience was good. However, as you might be able to tell, EVEN with the photos, it takes me significant effort in attempting to clearly ask my questions.

 

[zieglj01]

I know. It's quicker here with people I trust, where I can post many photos, and keep a thread.

I agree, and the people here are more tech-minded than me.
I would have to be there in person, to take care of that.

 

[jostenmeat]

In most crossovers the negs are all connected together. You can't have a neg going nowhere though for any reason. Yes you do need a multimeter for this. You absolutely do.

So I finally got the multimeter and started playing with it. I don't know what I'm supposed to do.

I used the ohms function, and I sometimes get different readings, though woofer circuits are normally showing around 22-24, or sometimes 24-46. Once, the mid woofer showed 12? The tweeter circuit showed a bit over 1, and then other times it's just going all over the place.

You said that the negatives are all connected, but still cannot just go anywhere. I was still sorta hoping that when I took (what I am currently predicting) the wrong negative to the positive of a different driver, I would have an open circuit (correct term?), but I still get ohm readings.

I'm cornfused.

I am hoping that for the tweeter, yellow remains the negative, and that it's the positive that is now blue instead of green. Regarding your previous advice and to repeat my follow up question from before:

* To insure proper polarity of connections, I use a battery test on the binding posts, and watch the woofer pop outwards, or something? (I won't be able to visually distinguish a tweeter moving though, so hmmm?)

 

[TLS Guy]

So I finally got the multimeter and started playing with it. I don't know what I'm supposed to do.

I used the ohms function, and I sometimes get different readings, though woofer circuits are normally showing around 22-24, or sometimes 24-46. Once, the mid woofer showed 12? The tweeter circuit showed a bit over 1, and then other times it's just going all over the place.

You said that the negatives are all connected, but still cannot just go anywhere. I was still sorta hoping that when I took (what I am currently predicting) the wrong negative to the positive of a different driver, I would have an open circuit (correct term?), but I still get ohm readings.

I'm cornfused.

I am hoping that for the tweeter, yellow remains the negative, and that it's the positive that is now blue instead of green. Regarding your previous advice and to repeat my follow up question from before:

* To insure proper polarity of connections, I use a battery test on the binding posts, and watch the woofer pop outwards, or something? (I won't be able to visually distinguish a tweeter moving though, so hmmm?)

This is next to impossible without the crossovers in my hands. If I had them in my hand I would solve it less then five minutes.

I have looked at your speakers. They are 2.5 way obviously. The fill driver (lower woofer) has an LR fourth order crossover at 500 HZ. I have printed up what this circuit should look like.

The upper woofer and tweeter crossover at 2,500 HZ third order constant power Butterworth. I have printed up a circuit of what this should look like.

What I don't know from the specs is if the slopes are combined electrical and acoustic slopes. I have drawn these circuits up for specified electric slopes.

These circuits and your meter should help you sort this out and get the right connections.

I don't know what further to suggest other than have you ship me the crossovers and I will put on marked solder tags and ship them back to you right away.

 

[jostenmeat]

Here it is fixed! I hooked up the pair to my LR stereo, and they imaged in there better than I've ever heard them do before. I could pick apart various sections in Beethoven's 9th (Zinman), I dug it. The rez is not the very clearest I've ever heard (as with very expensive stuff), but pretty darned good for the money, and it's nice to have some real semblance of bass in there that I wouldn't get with bookshelves. I've been familiar with these speakers for a while, but they can really do so much better when given freedom of space with both positioning and space away from boundaries, particularly the front wall.

The twisty ties that are stapled to the cabinet (wire mgmt) broke as soon as I started handling them. I twisty-tied all of the internal wiring, but stopped short of restapling (the ties themselves) into the wall. I played with the insulation to help out wire mgmt, particularly for the bottom driver, so that the chances of buzzing on the port or something would be greatly minimized. The upper driver has this sort of sheath below it to help wire mgmt.

You can see some finish damage at the very bottom/left of 2nd photo, but I really didn't want to bother dealer or PSB with this, as it still "works". It's pretty subtle, and only someone looking for it would see it.

I want to get some MDF glue my friend recommended for a few bucks, from a particular high-end lumber store (the front/bottom panel is not fully/securely sealed right now). Thanks for all of the support in getting this back up from the grave.